1998: The year of art

acheron.org % discussions: General Art Discussion: 1998: The year of art
By
Dangermouse on Thursday, December 31, 1998 - 06:19 pm:

What do you remember from 1998 that was pretty damned cool? State your good moments within the scene, or even your bad ones. Reflect on the year that was 1998.


By Nightstalker on Friday, January 1, 1999 - 08:04 am:

the birth and death of many groups (the birth of souls, scrollz, legion, avenge, zenith ..., death of fire and many others)


By Big yellow man on Friday, January 1, 1999 - 08:12 am:

and actually groups surviving the whole year in that jungel that the scene actually is! That is scene spirit =)


By Polymorph on Friday, January 1, 1999 - 12:53 pm:

i'd say 1997 was a better art year, which can be because i was active back in 1997 but not very much in 1998. i think. can't really remember though.


By Etana on Friday, January 1, 1999 - 01:59 pm:

I'd say 1998 marked a year of change and rebirth.. before the art scene seemed awkward and uncomfortable after the death of the BBSs.. now it seems more stable on the Internet.. places like acheron and hirez.org sprouting up and connecting people again. It seems to me that fewer people are wailing over the supposed death of the 'art scene' and more people are getting involved.. the many new groups that seem to be popping up are evidence of that. I don't have any more worries about the scene's survival..

I think 1999 will be a good year for all of us.


By Dangermouse on Friday, January 1, 1999 - 06:01 pm:

Yeah, the scene seems to always keep regenerating anyway, which is evident not only over the last few years, but also the last 10.

Do you guys think Legion had anything to do with the 'sudden' resergence of the art scene? (This is more about ANSI I guess than any other art form, although a few hirez groups have also made their mark in 98).


By The night angel on Saturday, January 2, 1999 - 10:57 am:

I will always remember 1998 as the year when Big Yellow Man ruined the awards. That ruled. Nice move.


By Big Yellow Man on Saturday, January 2, 1999 - 12:14 pm:

?


By Nightstalker on Sunday, January 3, 1999 - 02:16 pm:

Why would bym have cheated on the awards ? there's absolutely no proof he did. ok, he was placed number 1 in the ansi charts .. but it could have been anyone that admires bym ..
I was very disappointed when the awards got cancelled .. but nobody knows he cheated!


By Filth on Sunday, January 3, 1999 - 05:04 pm:

"i'd say 1997 was a better art year, which can be because i was active back in 1997 but not very much in 1998. i think. can't really remember though. "

no way, 97 kinda sucked. i think it was the worse peroid in the scene. 98 was a very promising year.

about bym, what makes you think he cheated? i heard that the knave's "friend" voted for him a buncha times.


By Blue Devil on Sunday, January 3, 1999 - 09:27 pm:

Ahem Danger don't forget about us little lit people down here that formed some pissant lit group that got told they couldn't do it by every tom, dick, and harry and we are still here. Yes Im refering to my scrollz . I, think the lit scene is back on the rise. What type of lit I, don't know, but I, have gotten people to express themselves in ways sometimes a piece of art can not I'm hoping with the new year some new competition shows up and more activity in my area happens otherwise we will go unchallenged and things will get boring =)


By Nightstalker on Sunday, January 3, 1999 - 10:27 pm:

same here with souls :)


By Dangermouse on Monday, January 4, 1999 - 02:19 am:

Yeah, there is no proof that BYM cheated on the awards -- but it was very clear that a few were.. Without knowing which ending results were false, it would have been pointless to continue the event fairly...

Bluedevil has a better idea about future awards thingos -- over to BD..

Oh, and yeah, dont forget about LIT and RIP.. :)


By The Night Angel on Tuesday, January 5, 1999 - 11:46 am:

Yeah, I'm sorry. It was me. I cheated. I wanted BYM to be #1 so bad!

He was first in the best group leader, was quite close to the first place in the logo section and also quite close to the first place in the pic section if I recall. Of course it's not him. It's someone who wanted him first really badly.

I'm sorry to have to say this, but the whole awards98 thing was stupid. I mean, the way it was going to be run. I've been thinking and making awards99, I've thought of a good way to make it. Anyone who is interested in sharing ideas should email me. I really think we should have awards, but they shouldn't be made like awards 96 and 98 have. Scene people are immature.


By The Night Angel on Tuesday, January 5, 1999 - 11:58 am:

I'm not really saying HE cheated. But someone obviously did for him. I really don't see why someone would cheat on the awards for someone else. That just doesn't make sense.

As for 1998, I think it was a good year. People tend to think it really sucked because ansi was disappearing and stuff like that. This is pure bullshit. How come I've never felt like it was disappearing? A few people did feel it was because they were getting tired of the medium. Like Maestro. He says it was dying and after really getting into ansi again, tadah! it wasn't dying anymore. This is just an impression people who are tired of drawing, tired of the scene, or just don't have much time to dedicate to the scene have. It has never been dying and never will because people will always enjoy drawing with blocks. Because it's restricted in its use.


By Dangermouse on Tuesday, January 5, 1999 - 01:37 pm:

Yeah, awards98 didn't work, and the system it used is obviously flawed for the scene - tna is right. Whoever wants to do awards 99 -- good luck to them.

Blue Devil's suggest via Oracle for a panel of judges is probably the best idea I have seen of late -- as it eliminates the 'voting' system which some of the scene obviously can't handle (as the failure of a98 shows).


By The Night Angel on Tuesday, January 5, 1999 - 10:07 pm:

Alright then, I'll share my ideas here. :)

There are a few things that should be taken into consideration for anyone who'd like to work on such event as awards 99 or whatever.

First of all you cannot select judges that are going to vote on people, because that would reflect the opinion of a restricted number of people. That basically mean the awards would look more like pack reviews, but for the whole year instead of a month. That's not good. But then again, you cannot have a voting system like the one in awards98, because people are immature. Winning, for them, is more important than the whole scene's opinion on artists.

Also, I think pretty much everyone realized that opinion on ansis change while you get better. People really new to ansi drawing (as well as other medium) tend to like stuff that really blows. So you cannot have them vote in the awards, because they will basically screw em up. People that should be voting are people who should've been in the scene for like, a few months at least. Lets say they should be people who joined the scene during 98.

So the only way I've thought about, that would fill up the lack if I can say, would be to have some people deciding what groups should be selected as being in the awards. Then, awards people would get in touch with every group leaders, and have them get their members' votes. The "voting sheet" (or whatever) would be updated during all the year, every month, because if there's going to be awards for the year of 1999, people listed in the "voting sheet" should be people who have drawn during the year. But then again, to ease this, awards people could get in touch with every group leaders and have them make a list of people who released in their group, during the year.

Awards 99 should be an all-scene job. It shouldn't be done by an individual. This is serious. By spliting work, it'll be easier and will definatly be better and really represent the scene's opinion.


By Leonardo.iCE on Wednesday, January 6, 1999 - 10:20 am:

My input:

I wasn't around for awards98, so I don't know how it was setup. but, I think its important to have ALOT of categories for the many different styles of artwork. Especially hirez... Rendered, handdrawn, abstract, photomanip, photos, sketches, paintings, logos, etc.

Leo


By Dangermouse on Wednesday, January 6, 1999 - 01:43 pm:

I think that yes, having a number of people in the scene pick the artists that have released during the year of 1999. But, how would the actual 'voting' system work as such? The main problem with a98 was that people got past the two lines of defense - IP checking and cookies.

Are you suggesting we use an email based system? That would indeed get around the above problem, but even then you can have people with two email addresses voting under different names. But maybe this won't be a huge problem if someone knows all the people in the scene :)


By The Night Angel on Wednesday, January 6, 1999 - 01:58 pm:

People would be giving their "voting sheets" to their group leaders. Every group leaders know exactly who they have in their group, so they wouldn't be able to cheat. I, for example, would send that so called voting sheet to everyone in Awe. Then, people would mail it back, with their voting. I would then send it to the responsible of the awards, and they'd do the rest. That's it. As easy as that.

I don't know much about vga, but I do agree with Leonardo. There should be as many categories as possible, so the results of the awards really show who is best in every categories. It wouldn't be fair to have only an ansi category, instead of having a pic and a font one. Same with vga, there should be categories for how people draw their pieces.


By Big Yellow Man on Thursday, January 7, 1999 - 07:25 am:

another idea is to just let the group leaders decide who is the best artists and the best groups.. i think they are the ones that are most aware of what's quality and productivity of groups and artists. set them all in a discussion room togheter and let them decide with the rule that they dont vote on their own groups or the members that they are representing (my personal opinion is that voting for yourself is unfair). Panel judging is probally the best system for getting awards to the people that deserves the award. The voting sheet à la tna could easily be applyed to this system.

I'd gladly support this system if i'm still around for the awards99.


By Xxxx on Thursday, January 7, 1999 - 11:49 pm:

"another idea is to just let the group leaders decide who is the best artists and the best groups.. i think they are the ones that are most aware of what's quality and productivity of groups and artists. "

never =)
maybe for ansi it works but _nothing_ else.
most leaders dunno about hirez a shit.

the system that dmouse had is the best.
it should have a list of the names/groups that have voted.

actually, those who are cheating are the ones that
are loosing, they can't know how good they are really. also, they know they suck cause they can't get higher with drawing. they dont want to draw more =)


By Leonardo.iCE on Friday, January 8, 1999 - 07:58 am:

Heres an idea:

Maybe about a month before the awards, someone could set up a webpage where people can register for the awards. They would have to fill out a form with some personal info, and what group thier from and what they do in the scene, etc.. Then someone could validate these people, or reject them if it looks suspisous. Then if the pass, they get like a number and password or something that they use during voting. and can only vote once.


just an idea.

Leo


By The Night Angel on Friday, January 8, 1999 - 09:16 am:

That would be pretty much the same as having the group leaders get the votes of their members. Tho if you use that way, I swear there are gonna be less votes, because telling people to go to some url doesn't always work. If you get every group leaders to make their people vote, as I said before, they are pretty much all going to vote.

As for what Bym, I don't think that would be fair, because it would pretty much be the same as if there was only a few people organizing the awards, and voting for who should get an award and who shouldn't. This should be a scene decision.

I also think people shouldn't be voting for themselves, but also that people shouldn't be voting if they have no knowledge of a medium. I mean, I don't know shit about vga. I'd rather not vote for anyone. I don't know shit about oldschool ascii, so I'm not going to vote. But I do know about ansi and newschool ascii. I can tell you if a vga looks good or not, but I really don't know anything about it. I think that should be written somewhere, in the voting sheet. That way, votings are gonna be fair, and also, people like me aren't gonna leech 30 vga packs to find out who draws best, a day before the awards.


By Big yellow man on Friday, January 8, 1999 - 10:36 am:

about fairness and that my system whouldn't work on anything else that ansi the ansi scenen i'd like to point out this:

ofcourse the ones that dont know shit about vga should vote on the best vga-artist/group. It's up to the vga group leaders, representing their members, to do this.

a group leader represent the groups members and if they dont know shit about vga they shouldn't vote on it... the voting sheets à la tna could easily be adapted on the group leaders if they dont already know where the group stands.

I'm into this judging panel idea it's the best way of avoiding conflicts and cheating. Panel judgeing is also probally the most simple way to organise the whole event.

Since most of the artists in the scene is involved in groups and the leaders represent them.


By Big Yellow Man Again on Friday, January 8, 1999 - 10:45 am:

oh.. forgot to reply to the one who dont dares to write his name..

we've already tried the system you though was the best and it didn't work like tna said everyone in the scene dont go to acheron and vote.. that means the artists that have most friends in the scene and the groups that have most members with internet connections will win. voting for yourself is like i said before not a fair way of deciding tallent even if you call it the whole scenes opinion. that applys to leonardos idea too.

I've seen how theese kind of systems work.. just look at demopartys.


By Dangermouse on Friday, January 8, 1999 - 07:34 pm:

Actually, I can correct you in saying that in the week that the Awards 98 were open for voting we must of had upwards of 150-200 votes. Quite a few people voted, though if they were all unique however will never be known :)

I think TNA has the right idea here. A voting system based on voting sheets dolled out to each of the groups leaders would certainly work -- as they themselves will know who the hell is in their own group, so cheating would be a bit hard.


By The Night Angel on Saturday, January 9, 1999 - 09:59 am:

I really thought alot about that system I've talked to before. I think it would be the better way to have everyone voting, without anyone cheating, and also to have less work to do. If every group leaders pass on the voting sheet and send it back with all the votes, there's barely anything to do. That'll be easier.

Dangermouse: you wanna organize the awards again?


By Dangermouse on Saturday, January 9, 1999 - 05:20 pm:

Nope :)

I've had my go without the best of results, so I think it's high time someone else did it :) Why don't you dude? You seem to have your head screwed on right.

Of course, I'll be more than happy to publish the results!


By The Night Angel on Saturday, January 9, 1999 - 08:08 pm:

Heh. Well, I would, unless someone wants to do it. Tho I wouldn't wanna work on that alone. Anyone feels like working on that with me?


By Root88 on Monday, January 11, 1999 - 06:39 am:

Group leaders running the judging for their members can lead to problems too. I am pretty sure most of the members in ACiD won't even want to take part in the vote. You can't vote for yourself, but you can always pull the, "I vote for you , you vote me" trick. To stop that you would probably have to place your votes only on group members other than your own. Since iCE has so many members if all their votes went outside the group, there is probably no way they would win anything.

May be just the group leaders should vote. Most of them have been around long enough to know what true high quality work is. They must have a very good idea of what is considered good art, or people wouldn't download their packs. Picking judges seems like the only solution to me. If you look at the review section on http://www.hirez.org, it's basically an Awards1298 and a soon to come Awards0199 for hirez. We have received a great deal more good reviews than bad.


By Leonardo.iCE on Monday, January 11, 1999 - 09:13 am:

Its a shame that the biggest problem with an a awards system is cheating.

Well, although it would probibly work, I don't think that just the group leaders should vote, I think everyone should have a chance to vote. Heres an idea to give everyone a taste of what to vote for. Maybe the group leaders could select a few nominees. Then those artist can submit thier best artwork and actually have it displayed for the voters. so then they vote for the artwork and not the artists.

I think a url should be setup, maybe not for the actual voting, but to display the artwork of the nominees. I think its a good idea to keep the votes within the group and have the group leaders release them. As far as the problem with people voting for themselves and creating a stalemate. I would suggest having everyone give 3 votes. So, if they want they can vote for themselve but are also forced to vote for 2 other people. *just a thought* Plus, the more votes there are, the more acurate the results will be.

I just hope this all works out :) I would love to see a good awards system for once.

Leo


By Big yellow man on Monday, January 11, 1999 - 09:33 am:

the system aint based on how many ppl's there are in one or another group... i know that whouldn't work. and i dont belive that a "vote foryouself and your own group"-system is the only chance for ice to win the awards. ice is a better group than that.

and why whouldn't acid want to take part in the system?

about the "trick" you are talking about i dont think it's a problem.. the group leaders whould are mature enough to discuss through which groups and people deserves the awards the most.


By God among Lice on Monday, January 11, 1999 - 05:39 pm:

Just to put my two cents in, I still think TNA's method would be the most sound, if you're going to have an Awards. I do think this should be a people's choice type thing.

Maybe hirez.org or other independent groups of reviewers could have their own choices for their favorite artists or favorite indivudual pieces over the course of a year, but the spirit of Awards seems to always have been about mass opinion.


By Big yellow man on Tuesday, January 12, 1999 - 05:27 am:

i've never considered a let-everybody-vote systems good. first of all the majority voters havn't really seen all artgroups releasing, which will make all theese systems popularity contests.


By The Night Angel on Tuesday, January 12, 1999 - 08:17 am:

That's what I was saying. If you let *everybody* vote, you'll end up with weird results. If you chose good groups to be part of the awards, that should work. Even if we'd let small groups be part of the voting, I really doubt anyone in them would make the top 3, or even the top 5. So I don't think we should let people from small groups (small groups being groups with people who started not long ago, not groups with only a few members) vote, because there are more chances they'll fuck the awards up. Because as I said before, when you start drawing, you tend to like stuff that blows. :)

As for voting for ourselves, I still don't know if thats a good thing. It is if you are really good, but there are more people not that great, than really good people, so I dont think we should let people vote for theirselves. Same with groups: if we let people vote for their group, the group that has the most members has a really good chance of being best group of the year, even tho it might not be deserved.

Also, I don't think we should tell people who have really good chances of wining the awards to give us one of their best piece and let people vote on who's got the best. That wouldn't be considered as being awards of the *year*. That would be more like a compo. The votes have to be for the stuff being released during all the year.

I think we should start a list right here, of groups who'd be in the awards. It might clear things up for a few people.. So what groups?

Acid, Avenge, Awe, Black Maiden, Cia, Glue, Ice, Legion.

Any other groups? Or any that should be removed from there?


By Filth on Tuesday, January 12, 1999 - 09:04 am:

if you ask me, the best, most reliable way, and the most pain in the ass way, would to select one person, and have that person collect all the ballots, and ON the ballots the voter should put his name/affils/email. like i said, it'd be a pain in the ass. but atleast it be almost 99% idiot proof (unless the person collecting ballots was an idiot)


By Big yellow man on Tuesday, January 12, 1999 - 11:15 am:

to filth: the person choising to take that assignment is an idiot. logically that fact will make "the pain in the ass system" non-idiot proof.

for tna's matter.. i know that voting for yourself isn't a good thing.. excpecially when you just concentrate the voting on a few groups.

and what makes you think that the chance for bigger groups to fuck up the system is less then for the smaller groups? also the bigger groups members tends to like things that blows.

having a awards just for the bigger groups whould also cause new problems =) and i belive a system like that can give verry wired results to (decpite from the fact that just the good bigger groups can win).

first of all most ppl whould lay down their vote just because they dont want to vote for something else then their own group. and how good is a system with like just 50% voting for something?
second of all this is also a popularity contest.

panel judging is the only way to go if you want good results.


By Dangermouse on Tuesday, January 12, 1999 - 01:40 pm:

Filth: why don't you collect the votes? :) heh

Seriously, the best way so far I've heard is Tna's . We have tried the free-for-all voting system, and that basically failed. Mind you, a system by collecting votes via irc as per Filth's suggestion might also work quite nicely, as long as the *idiot* collecting the votes, or a collection of people, know about most of the people within the scene -- so cheating can be eliminated.

My only problem with not allowing everyone to vote is we are not promoting a democratic art scene. I know I have tried before and failed with this model in mind, but perhaps Filth's method might prove to be a little more sturdy -- with people manually counting the votes and not a cgi program, and the people themselves knowing who is in the scene, and who has voted twice.


By Maestro on Wednesday, January 13, 1999 - 04:52 am:

Everyone should be able to vote. Just make sure that a) all of the resources are readily available and easy to access for the voters to look over before they make their vote (ie. All of the nominees should have sections where the voters can go in and either look at the packs again or look at the artists work. That way they can refresh their memories and they'll have a clear picture as to who they're voting for and not be like "Well, I remember some of those Legion packs were pretty good. Maybe I should vote for them.") Maybe having all the nominees put together "Best Of.." packs would be a good idea. Special edition compilations just for the awards so that the voters won't have to spend time looking at EVERY pack.

b) You REALLY need to setup a system so that people can't vote more than once for the same thing. Even if it's going non-automated and having scenesters email their vote in to an email alias like "
vote@acheron.org". Set up a commitee of like 5 scenesters and then have all votes sent to vote@acheron.org forwarded to each member. You can help maintain validity and consistancy by having more than one person keep track of the results. Once the voting is over, each member of the commitee will tally up all the votes they have received and then fill in the totals in the appropriate nominee sections (Make up a final voting results form and send one to each member. Once they fill in all the results have them re-name it to ??-vote.txt. the ?? being their initials.).

Just a thought. :)

I still have the flue. I'm going back to bed.


By The Night Angel on Wednesday, January 13, 1999 - 07:41 am:

What I was saying about small groups, which are goups of beginning artists is that you need a certain period of ansi adaptation I'd say. Whatever you may say BYM, it's still true. Hell, just look at Seltorn who I've seen saying in #ans that he was a really good artist. Also, the scene being an organized group, I don't think just anybody could judge. Else, you'll end up with even channel bots voting. I don't remember who it was, probably Maestro, but I've seen someone in the discussions here saying we should brought the elite thing back. That's definatly true. Back then, we had boards. Alot of them were boards that only good artists could get on. That way, there wasn't any lamers in the scene, as we always used to say. Because of irc and free +o giving, just anybody is in the scene. Have you ever seen someone saying he was in the scene, w/o drawing, writing lit or tracking? There are people like that and I really don't see why people like that would vote. Same with people who started like, less than 6 months ago. You'd wanna tell em go ahead man, you haven't done anything for the scene yet, since you've only been around for 6 months, but I give you one hell of an important thing: I give you a vote. Your voice will be heard. That doesn't make sense. I think if we wanna have FAIR awards, we have to limit the scene and keep people who have been around for more than just a few months. People who KNOWS who they're voting for. That's also in reaction to what Maestro said. I mean, if you're really part of the scene, there's no way you need to go back to old packs to see who was good. You remember the names and the art.


By The Night Angel on Wednesday, January 13, 1999 - 07:44 am:

I don't think we should really think all year long about a system where it would be totally impossible to cheat. I think we should just get all the decent artists to vote, because we know these guys want fair awards. If people cheat this year again, then, we'll change the system. But if no one change, then we'll all be happy. :)


By Big Yellow Man on Wednesday, January 13, 1999 - 08:25 am:

Ofcourse i know that ppl that has been in the scene are better aware of lots of things. My point was that they are often as immature as the newbees in the scene. it's a matter of personallity, maturity and respect toward theese kinds of events. We've already seen that a system when a mass of ppl vote dont work, not because of the system but because ppl are fucking it up. My point was that a judging panel system delivers the best results. But letting the judging panel consist of all members in all the big groups without having any discussion can end in such a desaster as dangermouses awards..


By Root88 on Wednesday, January 13, 1999 - 08:29 am:

Email, and IRC are just as easy to cheat on as the web voting was.

All this sounds like a too much trouble to me. If you like someone's stuff, give them a pat on the back, that should be enough. I thought we were doing art for art, not awards.


By Maestro on Wednesday, January 13, 1999 - 10:26 am:

The system I suggested is both practical and simple. There is nothing complicated about it. It's precise and organized and most important, it's fair. I think I just typed way more than I needed to so it sounded more intense than it really was. Heh.

*** ANYONE WHO IS AN ARTIST OR A FAN OF ANSI ART IS ENTITLED TO VOTE ***

It doesn't matter if you've been in the "scene" for 3 months or 3 years, you LIKE what you LIKE. Essentially a vote is an opinion and EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion. If you present the voters with the material that is to be voted on before hand, I don't see what the problem is.
Who are we to say "WE CAN VOTE BECAUSE WE'RE COOL BUT YOU'RE TOO LAME TO HAVE YOUR VOICES HEARD!"

That's not what I was shooting for when I made the reference to bringing back the elite aspect of the scene. Even the whiney, immature, "lamers" have a right to express who their favorite artist is.

This crap about having group leaders collect votes from their members or having a judging panel that consists only of members in big groups is just that.. CRAP. You do that and I can guarantee that the results will NOT be accurate.

If you're not going to do this in a democratic way (like dangermouse made a reference to) don't bother doing it at all because to put it bluntly, it's going to suck.


By Maestroke on Wednesday, January 13, 1999 - 10:57 am:

I just read over what I posted and realized it looks like i'm saying the only way to do this is MY WAY. I didn't mean for it to come out like that. I think you guys see where I'm going to though with it though.


By Mass Delusion on Wednesday, January 13, 1999 - 02:51 pm:

While I dislike doing this, I agree with Maestro. Whoever posted that they think we should exclude small groups and newer members of the scene is a fascist crack addict. =)

There is no logical way to differentiate who gets to vote and who doesn't then. The only way to do it is to simply ensure people aren't voting multiple times. This requires a username/password based authenticiation model where accounts are given based on the validity of the user.

The idea about a panel of scenesters to I.D. and validate who is a scenester is a good idea. Anyone can get in as long as they have a reference or some sort of legitimate claim. This doesn't mean they have to be in the scene forever, but it means they better be able to show a pack, maybe a web page, chat with you, or do something. C'mon people, at least from my history in iCE, I can pretty much tell who is a bullshitter and who isn't. It isn't THAT hard. And if you have some sort of rudimentary "background check", you'll automatically limit the bad apples to a real minority where they won't have any real effect on voting.

Lastly, anyone sado-masochistic (sp) enough to want to collect votes by hand is a moron. Use the web. For the love of god. Why do things by hand when you can totally automate everything? Make allowances for the few idiots who can't use the web still and go from there. There is no reason to do everything by hand... get with the program. =)

-Mass Delusion // iCE


By The Night Angel on Thursday, January 14, 1999 - 06:13 am:

Shut up damnit. I aint no junkie fascist. I'm out of this anyway. This is getting too fucked up. People are never going to agree on anything. I say just drop this, it's a dead end. And whoever is going to do the awards, just take my name out off the list will ya. I aint gonna waste my time argumenting on anything like that.


By Big yellow man on Thursday, January 14, 1999 - 07:26 am:

first of all i whould like to reply at maestros fantastic argument that my system is crap just because it is. Probally it is crap cus most systems never tried before usually dont work. But it's not crap just because there are a panel that are judging. I can garantee you that the results will be more accurate than having like 30% of the scene vote and call it a majority decision.

and i agree with tna that this discussion is a dead end =) having a system that everybody likes isn't really possible.. and all system depends on that ppl support it... i was just reflecting on thoughts i got while reading the first part of the discussion and i guess that was the same thing tna did, calling him a fascist is both dumb, ignorant and disrespecting. (heh.. i sound like my mother)


By Maestro on Thursday, January 14, 1999 - 08:38 am:

I apologize to BYM for calling his system "crap" because I disagree with it. :) I was just being goofy. However, I did give a valid argument as to why I disagreed. Like I said, EVERYONE should be entitled to participate in this.If this awards cerimony is supposed to reflect the accomplishments of those involved with the artform who have broken the barriers of achievements, then everyone those individuals have affected should have a chance to show their appreciation by placing a vote.

In regards to the panel of judges thing.. Think about it, who's going to decide who gets to sit on this panel that's going to represent the entire scene? Who is elite enough to decide who's elite enough for the panel? You see what I'm getting at? And if you have the scene decide who's elite enough to represent their opinions, you might as well just let them all vote because if they can vote on that why can't they vote for their favorite artist or group?

massd: We've already seen the automated system fail. Besides,something this small doesn't need to be automated. It's not like the people counting up the results are going to be flooded with +500 votes. I'd be suprised to see it even break 100.

You can't come up with a system that everyone is going to like, but you can come up with a system that is FAIR. You may not like what I suggested, but it is fair and I'm sure there are other people with other ideas for systems that are equally just.

tna: Something like this should be for fun and not taken so seriously as to the point you get pissed off and call it "fucked up" and throw in the towel. If you don't want to participate in the "behind the scenes" stuff then that's understandable, but if someone likes you, let your name be there for them to vote on.


By Filth on Thursday, January 14, 1999 - 01:08 pm:

well, i'm not saying we _should_ do this. but if i lived in a fantasy world this is what i'd like to see:

as i said before maybe one person should collect. but why not say 3, or 4? that way you know it's fool proof. let's just say one person collected the votes, and he was the #3 ansi artist, and his group was #2, etc.. you KNOW there will be people saying he rigged it, and shit like that. so that way, when you have more than one judge from say 3 different mediums, it'll be more likely to be legit.

as the voting goes. i think it should be transfers thru irc, or emails. and the voting submissions should be something like "filth.vot, bym.vot, maestro.vot, etc..."

anyways that's what i think would be good in my utopian scene.

but come to think of it, why bother anymore? i mean since awards 96 it's been nothing but a daycare center. maybe it's a sign saying we should just give up


By Dangermouse on Thursday, January 14, 1999 - 01:46 pm:

Tna, now you see what it was like for me :) Once you think up any system, there will be others who oppose it, think they have a better plan, or just like putting down other people to make themselves feel special.

Don't give up doing an awards 99, just take whatever has been mentioned here, and then draw up a proposal using the best ideas from this thread. You can post it on acheron.org as an article if you like, or distro it via irc, and then ask for *constructive* criticism.


By Maestro on Thursday, January 14, 1999 - 02:15 pm:

See, that's why filth is one of my bestest buddies. He ALWAYS seems to know where I'm coming from. :)

I wUV j00 fIWLPH!@#$


By Big yellow man on Sunday, January 17, 1999 - 06:46 am:

Hmz.. i recommend maestro to read my first post. If every groupleader (that is already given leadership over its groups members in most cases) respresent the votes for their members does that almost everybodys voice will be heard. Diffrent groups has their own stile and thoughts that will make the results more accurate cus if you have your own opionion that you belive in you stand by it (just look at this discussion). The main problem with everybodys voting is that we're not living in a fantasy world. Lots of people dont take the awards seriously and therefor fucks up the system or lay down their votes. theese things makes the results fucked up and ppl get pissed afterwards.


By Maestro on Sunday, January 17, 1999 - 09:01 am:

Ok, so what about those people that aren't in any groups.. What if I wanted to vote? I'm no longer a part of anything so I guess my opinion doesn't count. Unless you're going to make an acception for me, but if you do that you'll have to make an acception for everyone.

If you do it your way than the results will not only most likely be inaccurate, but questionable. Some people might think that these group "leaders" altered the votes to be favorable to their group. God, I don't see why you have such a problem with letting everyone vote on an individual basis.

I recommend that Big Yellow Man reads mine and filth's posts a few times. As a matter of fact, print them out and past them on the ceiling above your bed.

READ AND USE YOUR BRAIN!


By Cthulu of Mistigris on Sunday, January 17, 1999 - 03:52 pm:

My proposed solution for Awards '99:

Along with the lists of nominees, include artwork that artist / group has chosen to represent themselves. It all gets displayed by some multi-platform executable (AWARDVIEW.EXE in Java, anyone?) and displays ALL the art at a controlled rate before letting you get to the voting form.

Add some built-in pauses to make the minimum time it takes to go through the program an hour (there'll be a shitload of art to go through anyway, so that's not unrealistic) and at the end you get to vote.

This solves two problems: cheating and being lil-informed. Before you vote you have to be well-acquainted with what the artist has chosen to represent them (though in a way, this system encourages voting on individual works of art rather than a year's output) because you have to see every individual piece of art before voting.

It solves the cheating problem in that it's just too damned tedious to repeat the hour-long process multiple times to stuff the voting box, and even if someone does do it a few times the cheating will be on such a slow rate that it won't effect the ballots much. To prevent output file duping encrypt them, and after voting cripple the software so that people won't be able to use that particular program to vote again.

This makes absolutely everyone able to vote (providing they can run the software - so let's make this as backwards-compatible (386) as possible) as long as they've got an hour to kill. This solves judge / people's choice dilemmas as well.

Point out the problems with my solution below:

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv


By Cthulu of Mistigris on Sunday, January 17, 1999 - 03:55 pm:

Well, below this. I'd like to actually get off the awards discussion binge (or make a separate area for it) and go back to discussing the strengths of various years, notably 1998.

Personally I loved '97, 'cause of the mistigris world tour, and hated '95 because I spent all of it getting picked on by Darkforce and Integrity.

'98 was when I became an artist outside of the constraints of the scene. This was important to me but has resulted in you all seeing less of me.
However, it has resulted in a lot more people seeing more of me.


By Big yellow man on Monday, January 18, 1999 - 09:06 am:

heh.. i will consider spending papermoney for printing out maestros excellent comments on my reflections =)

Now i'm accused of not using my brain =) =) =)

Those ppl who aren't in any groups and dont release art dont usually know jackshit about ansi.
If legion and zenith and the others that died but was active in 1998 whould have been in the panel for awards98 could be discussed. But if you dont do something for the scene the year you'll be voting for i dont think you deserve to vote for that current year. But that is just my opionion.

Btw.. chutulu got a point..reply on this in a new area soo he can discuss what year was the best and the worse.


By Dangermouse on Tuesday, January 19, 1999 - 01:33 pm:

Well since this is the area about 1998, we can discuss 1998 here :) Everyone go to the new a98 bit if you wanna talk about the awards thingie.


By Dieznyik on Thursday, January 21, 1999 - 07:25 pm:

its 1999. w00. i dont even remember last year. it was shoddy, full of personal mistakes... but i did get some decent drawing done.

scene-wise i think the situation is so completely different all of a sudden... like someone pulled the rug out from under the scene in the last months of 1997 and people are carrying themselves in a slightly different way now.

interesting! thought-provoking! so why in nineteen-motherfucking-ninetynine are we still using heirarchal monsters designed for making warez site advertisements? grow up!

werd is bond.


By Dangermouse on Thursday, January 21, 1999 - 08:17 pm:

I'm either completely screwed in the head, or I just missed the gist of that last post ;)


By Cthulu of Mistigris on Friday, January 22, 1999 - 12:58 am:

I agree completely with diez, but everyone is probably missing the gist of my posts as well.


By Dangermouse on Friday, January 22, 1999 - 06:22 pm:

What? :)


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