"real world" vs scene art

acheron.org % discussions: General Art Discussion: "real world" vs scene art
By
God among Lice on Sunday, December 6, 1998 - 02:02 am:

This topic came to mind after reading something Catbones posted somewhere else:

"Some of us have our own delusions about seeing this evolve into something that is actually
respected and revered by the greater art world. You "funboy hobbyist" types are just dead fucking weight."

This to me sums up the scene pretty well. On the one hand there are people here just to have fun, with people in groups that are even just beginning to learn the ropes of digital art, who see this all as just a hobby, and often little artistic direction other than "let's make something that looks cool". On the other are people who have higher ideals, perhaps more dedication to their art, striving for a kind of respectability to the scene as seen from the "greater art world".

I often wonder if this respectability is possible without a radical change in the makeup of the scene. As it stands I think it'd be very difficult, mostly because of the fact that most of us simply can't devote our life to our art. Catbones makes a living out of his art, but most of the people in the scene are students, still deciding what they want to do with their life, and presumably without the option of devoting all their time to their art.

I don't think it's really possible or right to sort of try and get rid of the "deadweight". If you plan to earn respect I think it could happen only through some kind of new association of artists with a serious dedication to art as a large part of their life, because you're never going to get rid of the scene as it exists now. In short it could only happen outside the boundaries of the current scene, and partly built with the help of people already outside those boundaries.

What are some other opinions?


By Deceased squirrel on Sunday, December 6, 1998 - 02:23 am:

I can be a bit of both.. both sides are to harsh for someone to be absolute about it. When someone new joins the scene, at first they'll draw for fun improving, because they want to be popular. But this getting rid of the " dead weight " is the stupidest thing i've heard. You can't force someone to quit something. You can make him feel unwanted, but what would be the point of that, just because his ideas of how the people in the scene should act and believe don't correspond with your own, then you're the real reject.

** I think I went off topic near the end **


By Luminous on Sunday, December 6, 1998 - 01:55 pm:

If you ask me, this sorta ties into the original's vs comic rips, and that kind of stuff.. because if the ansi (moreso than art) scene will have to get away from copying comic book artists.. in the real world, being able to pencil out a spawn pic will get you nowhere in its art scene.. but here, most people like / do comic rips, moreso than originals.

The art scene that we all know and love is also going to have to go mainstream, if what catbones wishes to happen, happens -- And i dont think the scene is ready for it. We're the underground scene for a reason, you know. :)

I also think Catbones was a little harsh.. of COURSE the scene is just a hobby for some, most, actually. Its not possible to make a living or anything even close to resembling one, drawing ansi art.


By Ironghost on Monday, December 7, 1998 - 07:43 am:

Okay here we go now -

I don't care about some "wannabe" who wants the scene to go "mainstream" and wants to be accepted as an artist because he can do web design or airbrush a skull. The fact of the matter is that people like me joined the scene when we had nothing better to do. I contribute regularly on irc, creating art, and trying to help out newbies. Catbones, you are so far off base that your whole argument made me laugh. The scene is an escape from the real world, sure some of us create and are artists out side the scene, but the simple thing that makes the scene FUN is the fact that it is an alternative to the real world. Without the scene I would not have started trying to better myself as an ink artist as I attempt to now. Without the scene I wouldn't have had the confidence to consider doing anything that might be considered art. Catbones, the scene hasn't changed much since the beginning, and I don't think it will change that drastically in the future. If you are unhappy with the scene, then leave. and a side point, pixel artists OWN photoshop artists (just thought I'd start something else going). Peace Out

- The IronGhost
iCE Productions
the 7th Seal SysOp


By Filth on Monday, December 7, 1998 - 02:29 pm:

FUN

that sums up the scene for me. i don't know catbones, i'm not really sure how long he's been around, but if he's been around longer than me, then he should realize people like ME are the reason that he's in acid. everymonth fellow artists like myself strive to produce ansi, just like any other. it's what we've been doing before the vga scene was ever concocted. so catbones, when you're whipping up airbrushed skulls with your fancy equipment, not really giving a shit at the real art scene, people like me are out producing the backbone of the scene ANSI. you're lucky catbones, that my idols paved the way for you to be here now, attempting to put us in our pace. you're lucky catbones, that people like me are still around. so before you try and act tought, and attempt to act like you know what your talking about, why not go out and realize what really happened.

and about this 'You "funboy hobbyist" types are just dead fucking weight." ' trying to act tought won't get you any respect. just becuase we can have fun, and not be anal about anything does not make us dead wight. you're the one who's bringing down our fun.


By God among Lice on Monday, December 7, 1998 - 05:56 pm:

Just a reminder.. catbones didn't create this topic, I did. I basically agree with what cat alluded to, that artists in the scene generally lean towards one of two directions: that what they do is simply for fun and a hobby, or that they wish their art to be taken seriously. I think there are more hirez artists than ansi artists that fall into the latter category, but I have heard some ansi artist's ideas that seem to fall there too (eerie and dieznyik come to mind).

I think this idea of art being taken seriously has two branches, the professional/commercial side (best exemplified by ice hirez) and the aesthetic side (best approximated by HRG, I think). The professional artist, as ironghost talks about, wants to be mainstream, accepted "because he can do web design or airbrush a skull". The aesthetic artist wants to be respected by the greater world of fine art, the art of museums and galleries.

To give a telling example, some ice members have formed a succesful web design company, and others create artwork for various companies. On the other hand, HRG recently had a group exhibition of printed artwork shown in a Moscow gallery.

Both of these tendencies would like to distance themselves from the the traditional scene (as well defined by filth and ironghost, that of fun). But both want to do so for different reasons.

If Cat wants to get rid of the deadweight, then you're right, he's probably best off doing that by leaving the scene.


By Mass Delusion on Monday, December 7, 1998 - 11:31 pm:

The art scene is for fun.

There are already many avenues for personal promotion and commercialization of your art without turning the art scene into another one of them.

If anyone thinks that the people who have been working their asses off to keep the "scene" running should leave the playground for a couple of people who are drawing now - they should heed Filth's words and keep in mind who got us where we are today.

Keep in mind that I don't think the art scene shouln't move forward - I definitely do and iCE is working hard to do things along those lines with v2. Showing the scene to the world at large to keep a fresh stream of new people involved is a must, especially in the ansi arena. We can't keep ourselves closed off if we want to continue flourishing, but we also should stay true to why we're doing this.

Keep it fun people, that's why we're here.


-Mass Delusion / iCE Senior Staff


By Deceased squirrel on Tuesday, December 8, 1998 - 08:12 pm:

uhmm.. .i tihnk catbones thinks the scene is his job or something.. people are here to have fun.. not run taco bell or bake cAKe..


By WindRider on Tuesday, December 8, 1998 - 11:11 pm:

Once again we hear the old bitch and moan about "i just do this for fun, don't take it so seriously, wah wah wah". Seems like i overestimated the ability of ansi artists to show some responsibility and maturity. Like it or not ladies, new artists coming into the various artforms are going to look up to you as role models. Now while i can't flat-out agree with everything catbones said, his points still hold a core validity. The problem here is that too many people have a perspective that is way too narrow. Catbones is working from a base that tends to have more 'real world' functional applications, and is generally much more mainstream in appeal. The ansi perspective here seems to be reinforcing that there's no reason a medium which lacks the same broad appeal should be taken nearly as seriously. That's crap. There are a lot of talented ansi artists out there who could quite easily bring it a wider audience, except they're too interested in drawing the latest popular big-breasted uberwoman to hit the market.

The lack of general popularity of the medium is no one's fault but your own, and artists in it only for a good time or the short run are the ones to blame.


By Count zero on Wednesday, December 9, 1998 - 07:34 am:

I disagree. The lack of popularity of the ansi medium is due to its lack of real-world applications, not to the immaturity of the artists in the medium.
In any medium you look at, there are artists who are immature, and who draw for fun rather than for respect and to create "art". Pencils? Look at comic books! Music? Almost any pop group you'd care to name! Literature? Doctor Seuss!
In EVERY medium, including ansi, the immature artists outnumber the "artistes" 100 to 1. The reason that it looks so much more prominent in ansi is that there are FEWER PEOPLE doing ansi. Where there are 100 million pencillers in the world (probably more, counting all the hobbyists), there are probably fewer than 1000 ansi artists. Thus, we have fewer people who are in the medium for artistic reasons.
You can't get mad at people for creating what THEY want to create with a medium. If the funboy hobbyists weren't creating at all, 99% of the ansi scene would disappear. There wouldn't BE an ansi scene, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.


By Filth on Wednesday, December 9, 1998 - 12:13 pm:

"There are a lot of talented ansi artists out there who could quite easily bring it a wider audience, except they're too interested in drawing the latest popular big-breasted uberwoman to hit the market. "


well this statement posted by windrider just proves that he has no clue in what he's talking about. big fucking deal if we don't feel like drawing vga so more people will see what we're doing. and chances are 90% of the ansi's we draw for won't be used on a bbs. is it a crime for doing ansi, just for the sake of it being ansi? i look at ansi artists the same way i do grafitti artists. we're both creaing art, for really no reason other than the fact that it _is_ art.


By Dangermouse on Wednesday, December 9, 1998 - 01:49 pm:

Here here..


By Leonardo on Thursday, December 10, 1998 - 03:37 pm:

you HAVE to be good to draw ansi, its such a raw artform, with hardly any tools to help you out. I think you can almost define how good an artist by thier ansis. I've seen vga artist who cant draw ansi worth a crap. I will always have respect for ansi artists. Me, I started by drawing ansis.. then I got a new computer and started to draw hirez.

check out my art gallery

http://www.members.tripod.com/~msartgallery

leo[iCE]


By Etana on Friday, December 11, 1998 - 02:13 pm:

Comparing vga to ansi is like comparing apples to oranges.

Yes ansi artists have fewer tools to fall back on and so when you see a really good ansi you can't help but respect the artistic effort--plus blood, sweat and tears--involved in creating such a work.. However, I think we can all agree, that just like you can seperate crap ansi from the amazing stuff.. you can seperate crap vga from the mind-blowing stuff. Sure, in photoshop I can throw together a ton of filters, blend it, puree it, and spit out something in under half an hour.. but it'll never look like the really good hirez pieces where every shade, nuance, and subtle highlight is lovingly layered in.

My point.. and I do have one.. you can't say one medium is superior to the other because for either to be good it requires creativity, talent and a lot of hard work.


By CatBones on Monday, January 4, 1999 - 02:48 am:

I guess all I'd really like to do is to clarify the initial quote that GOD made when he started this discussion. He understood my point because he had the rest of the context that led up to that remark. It seems that some others have taken that sentence for their own ride.

Me personally? I'm in the scene for keeps. I'm not here while i make my way through college, for a sideline entertaiment gig. I don't do this for a diversion from who i really am. The ONLY way that all the time i've invested in the hiREZ art scene will ever pay off is if we keep it progressing in a strong and positive way. If we hang around for twenty more years, or forty more years, i believe that our persistance and longevity will get our "movement" notched into art history texts of the future. Sure, it may sound farfetched, but it's something i believe in. The "hiREZ scene", the major groups, I'd like to believe that some day there will be a little notation on a timeline where it marks amongst the transitions in culture and art during the dawn of the age of information, "here digital artist in groups like ACiD and iCE and hRG were beginning to coax two dimensional art into the digital era" - I don't give a fuck if they call us crude, or repetitive, or if they single me out say "..and the legendary iron ghost was right about CatBones and Photoshop being silly, poking pixels into the grid one at a time was truly the sophisticated approach and where it was really at" - all i care about is that some day in the future, all this that we're doing right now will get some remembrance.

I've seen a great transition in the quality and originality of work that's being done throughout the scene between now and say in '93.. the difference is phenomenal. I think in another 5 years, maybe another 10, the scene will have drawn MORE talented, ambitious, real world artists, and eventually our "scene" can be recognized as an admirable alliance or association of a proven medium of expression.

The problem that has always existed in the scene, from my point of view, has been that the greater percentage of 'scene artists' were always flakey, here and there, group to group for names' sake, might release, might not, fade away in 2 or 3 years.. This sort of "art hobby" flotsam will naturally be drawn into our midst, and in time, the ebb will draw it back out to sea, so to speak. But the mentality behind that class of 'artist' is counter-productive to the acchievement of the delusionary goals i have. When a serious artist comes into the scene and sees enough of the 'hobby art pixel poker' tomfoolery it drives him away. I've seen it happen, and i'll see it again.

I discussed with Shere Kahn of hRG their groups' showing at a Moscow gallery (mentioned earlier by GOD.) It THRILLS me to think of it! That's the sort of devotion and a realistic approach to letting the outside world look across lines they might not ever see that CAN prove me right. We can be remembered as a real movement in art at the end of the 20th century. Dead weight or not.

For some guys the scene will always be a "fun escape into a pretend world where within our own microcosm we play artists and critics and score it all like team sports." For some of us, it's a natural procession for us to channel our drive and ambition into a medium that is still being developed, artists who want to be there as art eases gently forward into the age of information.
You all know which one you are. And it shows.


By Root88 on Monday, January 4, 1999 - 07:39 am:

Well put Catbones.


By Leonardo.iCE on Monday, January 4, 1999 - 09:37 am:

Cat, I like your ambition for taking the scene into the future. I think... I KNOW it will last for years to come. It would be really cool if the underground computer artscene goes down in some history book one day!

Leo


By TabaquiACiD on Monday, January 4, 1999 - 11:08 am:

Hello, this is my 'first time' here - be gentle!
I think i have to agree with CatBones, that the hirez scene has the potential to be something more then just a place for people to goof off and be silly. There's nothing wrong with that, but i think that if some artists and some groups want to broaden the hirez horizon to include future 'historical reference', why not? When the Beat and Da Da artists started, they were 'rebels' in the underground, making art and literature for themselves, expressing their vision and their ideas about life, love, the state of the world. And now, they are a world-recognized movement, a part of what helped to define their generation then and now.
I think it would be incredible if hirez, and ACiD in particular, could come to represent part of the twentieth and early twenty-first century for future artists, computer and otherwise.
I personally love the way certain ACiD artists have recently been seen to leap into the world of abstract art - it's great to see a pack where maybe one or two pics are 'ads' and the rest are just art for arts' sake, someone doing the best thing they can just to show the world WHAT they can do.
And i don't think this ever has to go 'commercial' in the way that so many people seem to want or fear - this art is for the people who made it and the people who view it, and if in future the world comes to see it as a first step into a whole new world, or the foundation of an incredible new and different art movement, then so be it. It's INCREDIBLE that hRG had a show at a gallery - even if only 'scene freaks' showed up, it adds a little more energy to the whole scene in terms of artists doing really great work, their best, most intense stuff. I like to think that ACiD artists can produce work that is so good, and different, and telling, that if someone from the 'real world' art scene were to come across it, he/she would be as blown away as someone stumbling across Dali or Rembrandt or even McFarlan for the first time.

Anyway, that's my rant. If you feel that art is just a 'hobby' and you like to just 'fool around' and it's not nearly as important as partying or tv or whatever, then there's always iCE. Hehehe.


By Mass Delusion iCE SS on Monday, January 4, 1999 - 12:57 pm:

If people misconstrue 'fun' as meaning 'not serious', then they either have a warped perception of what their job is, or they have a sadistic view of 'fun'. The scene is a hobby, and just because it is fun for people doesn't mean they don't take it seriously.

To draw a picture, iCE is a group that is largely composed of older and more professional artists; people who do what they do in iCE but for a living somewhere else. Now, if people wanted to turn iCE into a 'business' of sorts where what they do is forced, required, they had quotas to meet, and had to draw certain subjects to satisfy 'clients', then they might as well go get a second JOB.

Instead, iCE thrives on having a good time, and sharing fun and art with a group of like minded men and women. If people take that to mean we're not serious, then perhaps they should take note that iCE hasn't missed releasing 12 packs a year in over 5 years. If that isn't dedication, what is? Who else can make that claim? Nobody.

> And i don't think this ever has to go
> 'commercial' in the way that so many people seem
> to want or fear - this art is for the people who
> made it and the people who view it, and if in
> future the

So, you mean, they should do it because they enjoy it? Because they have fun doing it? That's odd.. that sounds vaguely familiar. :)

If you aren't doing it because you enjoy it - the only other boolean option is because you HAVE to, which sounds surprisingly like a JOB. Which one is it? Because you want to, or because you have to?


By TabaquiACiD on Monday, January 4, 1999 - 01:45 pm:

Ah ha.

>So, you mean, they should do it because they >enjoy it? Because they have fun doing it? That's
>odd.. that sounds vaguely familiar. :)

>If you aren't doing it because you enjoy it - the >only other boolean option is because you HAVE
>to, which sounds surprisingly like a JOB. Which >one is it? Because you want to, or because you
>have to?

Of COURSE you do it because you like it - art is one of the FEW things people actually do for love and enjoyment, instead of profit.

However, when any criticism, critique, or question that upsets the 'balence' is met with 'it's just a hobby, it's just for fun, i have a REAL life' says to me that not only is the art not being taken seriously for what it is (which, hopefullly, is a personal expression of something), but it's not being taken for what it CAN and WILL be... I've read enough 'discussions' about hirez art and it's future to know that the truly serious artists want to get beyond ads for BBS's and lame statements about how 'underground' we all are, or whatever, into something that could put a lasting mark on the history of the internet.

But i guess it being just a 'hobby' means you don't have to take any responsibility for the crap out there, and when you've been lax and done the same boring junk twenty times over you can always say 'i have a REAL life, this is just my hobby'. If art isn't a part of your REAL life, why even bother?


By CatBones on Monday, January 4, 1999 - 01:49 pm:

I'm surprised it took 3 more messages before another:

>The scene is a hobby, and just because it is fun for people doesn't mean they don't take it seriously.

..popped up.

Like i said.. there are those who look at the scene as a hobby, and there are those who look at the scene as a heartfelt means of carving something historical out of it.

For you, MassD, it's a hobby. For me, it's a transitionary stage in the history of art, one which i take as seriously [or probably more so] than my career [which is, after all, just a means of paying the bills, not something i have passion for like non-patron art].

I have little patience for the "how fun it is to play artist" babble of hobby-artists. Their words are repetitive and scattered with defensive dodges about what's real and what's not. Generally, while i am a true fan of a few of iCE's better artists, I dis-regarded iCE as a vehicle that had any pull on what i REALLY want to see the scene become, and have no respect for the group overall.

Lest everyone forget, I was in iCE for a couple of months, i saw it from the inside. For those of you who haven't been in both iCE and ACiD, i can testify that the general ambience of iCE is SOOOO much more "hobbyist/social-clique" oriented, and ACiD is much more focused towards the grander scheme of the scene vs. the real art world, outside the machines. If iCE had been all about ART, i'd still be with them. I couldn't live with seeing social triviality placed above ART.

Since this had to be turned into an iCE/ACiD arguement like everything else, that's my speak on that topic.

I'll be in ACiD for, ohhh, 40 or 50 years, if my eyes and hands hold out that long.
Beyond everything else, I am devoted to seeing this "scene" eventually revered by the true art academe.. I'll just have to endure the hobby-boys.. They come and go fast though. Or eventually make their way to iCE where the fraternity party environment feels like home, so i can live with the dead weight. ACiD usually doesn't have to bear much of it.

'Bones


By F7 on Monday, January 4, 1999 - 02:36 pm:

wow, now I don't know where I fit in... Serious or not.. all I know is I HAVE to do this... since I first came in contact with "the scene" it's been part of my life. I have tried, in the past, to leave, but I have found it all but impossible. In ACiD I think i've found some semi-like minded individuals and i've never felt this comfortable in a group before. Call ACiD serious or hardcore or whatever, but I think more than any other group it's a place for those of us that intend to stay in the scene... I really never felt that kind of dynamic in any other group. I guess you ahve to be here to fully understand Cat's point of view.. oh well =)


By Darkmage on Monday, January 4, 1999 - 08:22 pm:

Well....lots to agree with and lots of useless shit too.

I agree that the scene would benefit from greater and more mainstream exposure. I think that the capability to get that attention already exists, it just isn't being used to its full extent. I've also noticed the trend where any revolutionary person or idea doesn't receive its full attention or respect until long after the originator is dead and buried. This is not to say that we should sit idle, just a general note that our work may not bear fruit anytime soon. On the other hand, I can't think of anything more satisfying than someday seeing a scene group's name in some major venue, whether it's an art gallery, museum, magazine, anyplace where the common folk will be looking at and appreciating it.

Mass D can provide an accurate number, but the number of requests and contract/commission offers that come through ice.org's purchase form each month are none too shabby, especially considering that no dedicated advertising effort has ever been made. These offers are a positive interest from "real world" companies wanting to invest some dollars for the services of scene artists. While this is more a benefit to the individual artist than for the scene as a whole, it shows that the rest of the world has an interest in what it is we do.

As for all this bullshit iCE-is-a-bunch-of-hobbyists talk, it's just plain ignorant. Game designers, musicians, freelance graphic/web designers, designers at full fledged design shops, tattoo artists, commercial artists, iCE has a very widespread reach where serious work and devotion in an artistic career is concerned.

Art in general and scene art in particular are just like anything else in the world. There are some who live and breathe it, some who are in it for a quick thrill that will pass just as quickly, and all the range in between. Those of us that live for our art cannot discount the role others with less passion for it play in contributing to the scene. And, to a large extent, the devotion a newcomer will show is largely dependant on the attitude others display towards them. In other words, seeing to it that people decide to stay in the scene and dedicate themselves to their artwork is the responsibility of those of us who already have the dedication.

-darkmage[iCE]


By Dangermouse on Tuesday, January 5, 1999 - 09:51 pm:

Shit, I remember when someone (in the scene) wanted me to make acheron into a print magazine (seriously). Imagine that, underground art scene work being viewed via the masses via a 'true' print medium -- whether or not that is viable however would be up to the publishers -- and we all know what they would say :)

Just a note about Catbone's comment:

>>I dis-regarded iCE as a vehicle that had any pull on what i REALLY want to see the scene become, and have no respect for the group overall.

I think having no respect for a group just because they aren't in line with your views is a little extreme. Perhaps the better use of words would have been "and as such I don't think iCE are in line with what I want to see happen in the scene". iCE as a group must be respected, it has been around for a very long time, has good senior management, and to me, a very good group ethic -- both professional and fun. That in itself must be respected, even if one does not agree with their aspirations or goals. Kinda like respecting an enemy for their skills..

But really, I have to agree with Catbones overall. I want the scene to become more well known than what it currently is, and I can certainly see that the scene is in fact getting noticed by the general public, as per Darkmage's response.

Seeing art in popular magazines and even art gallery's (as HRG have done) is indeed the very thing I myself want to see. Recognition not just down the track, but also in the present.

Sites such as Artcore and Artsource (when online) will only serve to further this dream, by featuring artists' art on the web as a collection. Coupled with sites such as acheron and hirez.org, perhaps the art scene may indeed appeal to a wider audience than our rather closed off community.

Does anyone else have any suggestions of how the scene itself could become more well known? Or, are there even those among you who wish it to still remain 'underground' so to speak?


By CatBones on Tuesday, January 5, 1999 - 10:27 pm:

There is no since in trying to argue the emphasis i'm trying to put on ART versus commercial graphics endeavors.
To some people, making it in commercial graphics is a big accomplishment. I got out of school and slid easily into a successful career in graphics. It's really no big deal. It's a craft. You learn it. You get efficient at it. You get payed for it. Big deal.
We're discussing apples and oranges, when you try to compare the motive behind what art groups like hRG and ACiD have to compell them, and the thought that success in commercial art is anything NEAR the importance of what the real issue is here.. the topic of discussion was real world vs. scene art, not real world vs. scene graphics and advertisements. I don't care how much money a graphician makes, or what volume of work they turn out. It's not impressive to me. I want to hear about gallery exhibitions! Or scene artists who make it in art magazines and direct the world to look this way in their articles.. I'm impressed by the induction of the concept of FINE ART in a video graphics grid within the elite few in the scene who really have STUDIED fine art, and what art IS, by academic definition.

Hooray for the guys who can make a living at a graphics craft! I do! It's better than digging ditches.. but the fact is, whichever i did for a living, when i got home at night i'd pick up my pencils or paints or markers or airbrush or mouse and i'd try with every fiber of my being to create FINE ART. It's not easy. Getting a check for layout and design and illustration, now that's easy.

The scene needs more exhibitions, public and web based. We need more long-term, devoted artists, and we need to see if we can't raise the ratio on the fine art over graphics and ads.

That's why we don't call ourselves ACiD Advertisements though, because although we'll occasionally advertise for ourr own benefits, we're really working towards something more akin to fine art than commercial graphics.

You see, when we talk about real art, that's when they get out of their element drawing in advertisment groups into the same discussion.

That's easy enuff to see, isn't it?
There IS a difference between "art" and "graphics".. you don't need me to define the difference do you? If we're artists, we KNOW the difference.

CatBones


By God among Lice on Tuesday, January 5, 1999 - 11:09 pm:

First off, darkmage is right to point out that in terms of bringing attention to the scene, iCE has been, and I think will continue to be, extremely helpful. iCE is full of professionals with links to the outside world, and they are constantly bringing people outside the scene into their group (though it could be argued whether those people are ever actually involved with the scene afterwards).

Cat isn't saying that ice is a bunch of hobbyist artists. What he's saying is that a lot of the artists in ice treat the _scene_ as a hobby. They are already interested in seriously pursuing commercial jobs:

>Game designers, musicians, freelance graphic/web
>designers, designers at full fledged design shops, tattoo artists, commercial artists

iCE certainly is serious about its hobby: "having a good time, and sharing fun and art with a group of like minded men and women." But Massd seems to think that to take the actual art istself seriously would mean to create a "business". I think what cat was getting at was that in his art-related business, the opposite is true; he can't be serious about his art there because all he's doing is artwork that other people want, and so he turns to the scene to express himself more fully and completely.

I think people who take their art seriously do so out of a need. Artists in ice are content to live in their separate worlds of creating just for fun in the scene (because they just like to draw), and creating for other people as a career. It's a kind of duality. The no-pressure, "I'm just gonna draw whatever because I like to" vs "art for a living".

The artist Cat describes creates art out of a need for the furtherment of an artform. When the idea of being recognized by a greater art world is brought up, the ice guys typically seem to be talking about all those people who create art for a living. What cat and I are talking about is a scene that is part of a greater art world in the form of art HISTORY, as a part of a collection of past movements and, most importantly, as the possible creators of entirely new chapters in such a history of art.

The scene represents the very beginning of artists creating artwork intended for an entirely new kind of place: the digital space that we inhabit while online and using our computers. It has been created entirely within this context, taking advantage of and embracing the connectedness of us all through the groups that have been created online. It allows us to more easily show our art to others, and indeed the artwork of the bbs was intertwined with our very means of communication. In addition to this are the many styles and modes of creating art that scene artists regularly employ which didn't even exist 15-20 years ago. We have used the tool of the computer to create art that totally embraces both its limits (ansi, ascii, and pixel art) and its freedoms (photomanip, etc..). With digital art we are also at the center of profound issues such as questions of ownership in sampled imagery, or the lack of singular creation in the traditional sense of the word since our images are data that can be copied. Stuff like this is being discussed here at acheron and over at hirez.org. Our part in the history and ongoing dialog of the greater art world is being forged as we speak.


Why simply brush all of this aside when it is clear that we could very well be at the beginning of a new and important chapter in the history of art? I suppose not everyone is interested in being a part of such a momentous occasion. They'd rather be having fun or making money. I'll accept that, but I'll do so knowing that these same people are going to be missing out on a lot.

God among Lice / HRG


By Darkmage on Wednesday, January 6, 1999 - 12:04 am:

My statements about the commercial attention that iCE artists have received were not meant to be taken as an end. More a step along the way. It was meant only to indicate that persons outside the scene have a serious interest in the artwork that the scene is producing.

The mentioning of the artistic careers was meant to show that we take our art seriously. In my opinion, there is no seperation between taking career art and personal art seriously. Either you are serious about it or you aren't. Every peice of work I do is a sharing of _my_ world with the rest of you freaks, and I treat each one as the most important thing in my life while working on it. Any _artist_ feels the same, and the scene as a whole is full of true artists in that sense. And for dedication, I worked 70-100 hour weeks for two years for the sole purpose of saving up enough money to take a year off and devote myself entirely to learning how to make 3d studio do what I wanted it to and establish myself as an artist, so I don't need anyone trying to school me about what dedication to art is.

Public scene exhibitions would kick ass, no question about it. What sort of things did everyone have in mind here? I'm interested in hearing specific ideas, helping out with any that are feasable, and helping come up with some on my own. I'd rather work towards an actual physical display as opposed to anything web based, as I think web presence is fairly well taken care of at the moment. That will take dollars and much organization if we want it to be _our_ display and not a sideshow attraction, but I'm up for it.

From my understanding, the addition of 'Advertisements' to iCE had nothing at all to do with going commercial. It was an attention getter. And....it worked. If iCE's interests lay in the almighty dollar, the group would be turning a healthy income.

I guess this whole real world vs. scene art question can be answered very simply:
If you are an artist, there is absolutely no difference.

Beyond that, the only reason I'm bothering to write anything is that some stupid fuckers with some VERY GOOD IDEAS have no clue how to bring them up without trying to belittle others in the process to try and show how great and magnificent they are.

So now I've agreed with your actual points and called you asses for your methods of describing them. What do you want to do? Continue bitching about how much dead weight anyone not in your group (ahem...social clique/fraternity) is bringing in or do you want to actually propose some ideas and do something to correct the problems you see?

-darkmage
[iCE Pride]


By Mass Delusion on Wednesday, January 6, 1999 - 02:45 am:

> But Massd seems to think that to take the actual
> art istself seriously would mean to create a
> "business"

Whether people are "serious" about their art or are "serious" about the scene is two different things. Cat continues to say we should 'cut out' the people who aren't serious about the "scene". Well, what if they are serious about their art, but the "scene" isn't serious enough for them? Then what? I say a good round of genocide is in order!!

I think it makes little sense (as I've said from the get go) to make claims about who is serious, and who is 'second-rate'.

Contrary to Cat's posts, no one else has made this a group war at all (applaud to everyone =). When I post, I simply use iCE examples, since that is what I know. It is comical, however, to make a dig at the fact that we have/had 'advertisements' attached to our name. For anyone claiming to want to cement the 'real' history of the scene in the history books, they should know that it has been around iCE's name for a very long time, representing an older generation of the scene. It's a nice little tag line to throw on there, makes the name more balanced. Does it mean we only do these semi-serious advertisements for BBS'? Does acid only create productions? Well, that's obviously not true.

> I think people who take their art seriously do
> so out of a need. Artists in ice are content to
> live in their separate worlds of creating just
> for fun in the scene (because they just like to
> draw)

Definitely not! People in iCE are QUITE passionate about their work. YET, many of us regard the scene as a past-time, something we do when we can (and we try to) make time for it. Would anyone in ACID skip a day at work or forego a paycheck so they could stay home and finish a piece for the next acquisition? I sincerely doubt it. That is what I have been saying. iCE is a professional group of artists, and we take our art seriously, but the _scene_, this incarnation of little groups with funny names and acronyms, and irc-lurking artists, and all of our petty bickering that goes on - THAT part, is most definitely a hobby. Anyone who takes THAT part too seriously.. well, you can draw your own conclusions. ;)

You should of course, treat it with respect, and work to improve it and help out however you can. HRG's gallery showing is FANTASTIC! Everyone is working on one form or another to help expose us. Oddly enough, iCE has been criticized in the past for exposing the outside world to the 'scene'. In a single day, iCE's website was visited by over 100,000 primarily non-scene people when we won cool.infi.net's Cool Site of the Day award in 1996. 100,000 people!! In one day!! Things like HRG's exhibition and our world wide exposure help initiate people into maybe the first step of joining our scene. That exposure should be continued at all costs. However, keeping ourselves in check is a good idea too.

Maybe the best way to sum up how at least I feel is an analogy. Compare the art scene to the linux 'scene'. Both are doing some groundbreaking, innovative work. Both are done for free basically. Both require dedication, and responsibility, and organization. They both require timeliness, professionalism, and innovation. Yet, both are done basically as "hobbies". Maybe a narrow definition of the term 'hobby' is what is confusing people here. A hobby can be anything from what you dabble in once a year to something you do every single day of your life, as art may be for you. However, a hobby is distinguished from the alternative, a job, by typical lack of payment or non-primary income AND by the fact that it usually resides as not number one on their personal priority lists.

If people are able to have art as their number one priority in all of life, then that is fantastic! I applaud them for such dedication. Most people put family, friends, job, and maybe a variety of other things before that. Does that make their art less 'worthy'? I would hope not. If the artist still puts themselves into whatever they do - that art is just as valid as someone who dedicates their lives to drawing pixels on a digital canvas and releasing in a monthly (or less often) pack. I sincerely hope that "right" is extended to every artist, regardless of 'priority'. I, for one, will make sure I fight for that.

-Mass Delusion // iCE

ps: everyone should note that, while i'm ice senior staff, what i say only reflects my opinion, and i'll grant you that i probably reflect a different opinion than many artists in ice and in other groups (.. obviously, duh). I hopefully have only come across saying that ice is serious about what we do, its why we've persisted so successfully all these years. Releasing packs every single month without ever missing a release, finding new and amazing artists in our ranks, seeing our artists get published on the covers of magazines (like Lightwave Pro) and in art journals, having demo reels from our members traded back and forth, releasing iCE special projects and seeing professional ventures among members work out... all these things show the dedication and professionalism that iCE contains. Anyone who thinks iCE is anything contrary is a dolt. We continue to be maligned despite that our art shows contrary proof; We're thriving and the world at large is becoming continually more aware of us - I think thats pretty darn good.


By Mass Delusion on Wednesday, January 6, 1999 - 02:52 am:

Catbones Wrote:
> If iCE had been all about ART,
> i'd still be with them.

I tried my hardest, but I couldn't leave this alone. =)

No, you wouldn't be.

*smooch*


By Argon on Wednesday, January 6, 1999 - 08:53 am:

Catbones;

Let the scene progress naturally. If this truly is, as you see it, a "transition period in the history of art," I doubt the scene is ready for it.
Its a lofty argument, therefore you should realize the impact of your words. Recently, I asked around on #ans for a copy of Adobe Photoshop 5.. what was the reply? Seriously, I was phased out as a "funboy hobbyist" and told I was dead weight.
I draw ANSI, and write. I dont get paid for it, I dont do it full time, I dont expect anything more than a "wow, thats a great ansi" from my audience. I don't want respect, I don't want to go down in the history books. I draw, and write because something within me propels me to. In doing that, I also have a hell of alot of fun-- You better believe it. I'm not going to spend time doing something I dont enjoy, and neither should you. And if that makes me dead weight, I could care less.

Argon


By CatBones on Wednesday, January 6, 1999 - 08:55 am:

I can't keep coming back to try to seperate the wheat from the chaff every day in this discussion base. Don't get me wrong, it needs to be done, but it gets old reiterating a point that continues to be selectively overlooked.

Fine Art and Commercial art are two seperate beasts. GOD and I are trying to drive home the idea that we as indivuals and the 2 groups who we are representing are dedicated to the first, while we observe iCE advertisements as being dedicated to the second. Since that idea is over your head, MassD, why don't you just drop the "dedicated to our art career" spiel and leave it be.

Yeah, as a matter of fact I HAVE let my "real" job and "real" life commitments slide from time to time, month to month, to contribute to/release art in the scene. Because to me, this IS real. Once again you further prove my point about where the line is for some of us in viewing the scene as a hobby or a labor of love and passion.

I didn't turn this into a group battleground. I came here to defend the concept that THIS ISN'T A HOBBY for some of us. It means as much to me [more really] than my career in patron-art does.

When I was a member of iCE, I felt the same way. It was very disheartening for me to find out that iCE as a whole didn't dream the dream. iCE as a group told me that being pals and getting along and having a nice, even keeled social core was more important than the potency of the ensemble of artists that made up the group. In my disagreement, I departed, and came back to ACiD.

I'm not saying that "the scene" should be any artists' first priority. ART should be. Not their friends, not their day job. ART. And if that is where their heart lies, then they'll bring that passion and drive to the scene with them. If the scene is a hobby for them, that they may or may not turn on this week at all, then that's the kind of lethargy and apathy that will seep into their group, and spill over into the scene.

There are two different kinds of people debating this, from where i see it.. people who put ART first in their life, and people who don't.

I'm one, MassD, and you're the other. I'm not saying that makes you a bad guy. I'm saying that i'll be glad when there is more conviction for ART. I'll be glad when the socialite contingent eventually resigns and gives the scene to the artists. The world needs lawyers and doctors and electricians too! GO BE THAT, if that's what you are. BE IT the best you can! But if you're an artist, you're an artist. I'm not a member of a hobbyist-medical group because I just wouldn't have the passion to motivate REAL doctors into pushing their science along into the future..

If you're stuck in a rut, believing pulp graphics and commercial art careers make indivduals into ARTists, then there's no need for me to continue debating with you. I can reccomend some good reading on WHAT ART IS. You know, the basics.

Go on regarding the scene as a "past-time" as you called it. Fortunately there is a corner of the scene where like minds congregate, and you're at the heart of it. =)

'Bones


By Root88 on Wednesday, January 6, 1999 - 09:37 am:

Man you guys are long winded. ;)


"Public scene exhibitions would kick ass, no question about it. What sort of things did everyone have in mind here? I'm interested in hearing specific ideas, helping out with any that are feasable, and helping come up with some on my own. I'd rather work towards an actual physical display as opposed to anything web based, as I think web presence is fairly well taken care of at the moment. That will take dollars and much organization if we want it to be _our_ display and not a sideshow attraction, but I'm up for it. "
- Darkmage

I recently read an article where a digital artist had a show in a gallery. He had 21-42 inch monitors mounted into the wall. Each monitor had a differnt picture on it and people could walk up and look at it as if it were a painting.


By Leonardo.iCE on Wednesday, January 6, 1999 - 10:12 am:

"I'm not saying that "the scene" should be any artists' first priority. ART should be. Not their friends, not their day job. ART. And if that is where their heart lies, Then they'll bring that passion and drive to the scene with them. If the scene is a hobby for them, that they may or may not turn on this week at all, then that's the kind of lethargy and apathy that will seep into their group, and spill over into the scene."

The Scene is the greatest tool an artist can have. An artist can create a drawing and release it in a pack, then instantly, thousands of people are looking at it. Artists like people to see their work (they wouldn't create it if no one saw it).
An artist can get feedback in his work from many different sources (pack reviewers, other artists, etc.) This is invaluable to an artist, it lets them see their art though other people eyes. Sometimes it will get negitive feedback, which will only help the artist for his next drawing.

An artist can also get help while he's working on a drawing. There are hundreds of VERY talented artist around here, all someone has to do is ask, and most of the time will get some great advise. Chances are someone already had the problem your having and can save you alot of time. Another valuable resouce for artists is tutorials, I actually learned a thing or two from Jae "hair tutorial"

An artist can also get inspiration from the scene, after looking though pack after pack you can really get some great ideas and learn alot of techniques too. If someone takes the time and really looks closely at other people's art, they can get an idea of how he did it, and apply it to their drawings.

The scene IS a tool, a really useful and complicated too. My point to this is that its ok if the scene isn't a high priority on an artist's list. Like a said, the scene is a tool for the artist to use at his discression. If someone chooses not to use this tool this week thats fine. I dont think people HAVE to take the scene seriously, but a serious artist should at least take his art sirously. Personally I think anyone who talks and argues scene politics have too much free fucking time on their hands. Its just a tool, a very very useful tool. Look at the big picture.

Leo


By Darkmage on Wednesday, January 6, 1999 - 12:14 pm:

>So now I've agreed with your actual points and called you asses for your methods of describing them. What do you want to do? >Continue bitching about how much dead weight anyone not in your group (ahem...social clique/fraternity) is bringing in or do >you want to actually propose some ideas and do something to correct the problems you see?

For some reason, I didn't expect to actually get a response from this. Just more ignorant whining about "my way is the only way and the rest of you suck". Sorry Catbones, but I don't think I could have more blatantly given you an opportunity to actually speak some valid ideas that might be listened to and participated in. I thought (incorrectly) that you might actually have an interest in garnering help and support for your ideas from all reaches of the scene. I thought (incorrectly) that perhaps some other artists in the scene might have similar mindsets as yours, but now I certainly hope not.

You sit around bitching about the way it should be and all the woes and ills in the world, and never do a fucking thing to try and change it. For all your rambling about artistic ideology, I think in truth you are much closer to being one of those dead weight illustrators you hate so much. Worse actually, because the illustrators don't whine.

While you were hammering out another flame on MassD, myself and others were discussing the possibilities of an annual scene art exhibition. A real one, not a web gallery. Not an iCE exhibition. A _scene_ exhibition. Granted, it was just throwing around ideas, but it was a start, and you were not there. You were trying to make yourself look better by continuing to belittle others.

Leaders act on their ideas. Artists live for their ideas.
Politicians whine about why they won't work.
I guess we know where you stand now, eh?

-darkmage
[iCE Pride]


By Dangermouse on Wednesday, January 6, 1999 - 01:33 pm:

No shit.. Write essays hey :)


By Incognit0 on Wednesday, January 6, 1999 - 02:36 pm:

Let me first explain my own take on Art as it exist in my life. Art is everything that flows through my mind in a single momment. I personally put everything in a back seat to the creation of art. Family, friends, relationships, and work will always be the runner up to what my true love is. Now this is not your everyday artwork I'm talking about... Art in my vocabulary only has one other word attached to it: Fine. Fine Art is much more then all encompassing medium, it's an emotion, a state of being, the most important aspect of my life save none!

So What's this mean to the list... well first off there is a drastic difference between fine art and commercial art. Commercial art lacks emotion and a deeper zen of thinking. Fine art relies on what can be protrayed to the viewer. Most of the scene art I've witnessed in the very short time I've been envoled; I wouldn't consider Fine Art. Yet fine art dosen't mean an artist has to simulate abstract oil paintings, or scan in works the've done in real world mediums. Fine Art can be thought of as a religion with a one word definition: emotion. If you can get an emotion across no matter the medium, no matter the style then what you have done is created a form of fine art.

The "Scene" has the unique ability to pull together people that have (at least in the smallist form) the love for art. Unfortunatly you also have to deal with their imaturity, lack of experience, or simply their ego. Their is a bigger picture to the scene, and if you go back and look through your Art History books you begin to see the cycle. Computer Created "Fine Art" rest in the same seat that "Photograpy" did years ago. People don't believe that it is "true" art. I've made it my personal crusade to prove to these very people that a computer can be used for much more then commercial art and layout. One of these days down the road, I'll win, because it's not just me but a whole slew of people across the world that feel the same way. And where working to make this a reality. But, one thing is missing... something to anchor it to. What better then to anchor an entire art movement to the "scene."

Thanks for your time,

-incognit0

sorry for the spelling and grammer. I ran short on time....


By T0m1 on Thursday, January 7, 1999 - 06:21 am:

ok fucks =)
sceneart&realart

let me clear up some things,
computer art is already considered as contemporary art, usually considered as media-art with net exhibiting it..
museums have already it. have had long long time ago. the only people that have been interested about it have been some friends but as a group-level or scene-level i've learned that if i or someone would go into that
direction i'd say farewell goodbye to groups cause "nothing" would happen. =)
unless i would have a group into that shit with people really wanting to do that.. there's some demoskene guys going to
museums. already some. mad thanks for hrg about the real expo.

also, most of the groups have so big variety on styles that it's better to concentrate to
one (especially when it's up to showing it to bigger audience). in scene, would it be cool to release 3d, 2d,
and pure computer stuff on different packs?


for a lesson of what is contemporary art on museums, check:
http://www.art.net/Studios/visual/Marketta/flashart.html
or http://www.kiasma.fng.fi/english/
http://www.kiasma.fng.fi/english/kokoelma/fkoko2.html

now you'll wonder who are all these pimps with their meaningless works.
the truth is that we are meaningless, a good artist is a good writer cause he/she
has something to say. or just having a big mouth to talk enough shit.
they all have big bunch of theories and lo-o-ong essays to back up what they do.
that's the difference. why ready-made art is art? you can buy something from shop and
go to exhibit it only if you can tell the critics what you're doing. helps if you're
violentic or selfdestructive person, over 40, and play a whore on media as much as you can. art magazines are mostly full of text.

Grim is the only scene person that i know, who have explained something what he does.
you can check up his views on his homepage.

incog:
>Computer Created "Fine Art" rest in the same >seat that "Photograpy" did years ago.
for the elite of fine-art scene it rests and always will. computer arts are contempory
art like video art, or net-art, not fine-art.. am i right or does it belong to fine-art?
i don't believe computer art will ever be nothing but a fashion that will be underground.
why?
cause it sucks among the leading forces of critics. but maybe there will be some individuals
in future that would pop-up. from graffiti scene came Haring and Basquiat. now there's a lot
new graffitipainters exhibiting of course, but they aren't respected in fine-art scene.
besides most scene art from real world sucks too. scene art is 99% illustrations, search some
better from fantasymagz like Heavymetal or TV.
of course all we do is art, yes, but i mean it on higher level. how many of us have meet
a real artist, or seen how he/she works? or talked even to one driven one? you can't just
read from art, you have to see. most of people here talking about art doesnt even know
what is for example impressionism, or when dali & picasso lived.

http://dir.yahoo.com/Arts/Art_History/Periods_and_Movements/Renaissance/Artists/
just proves how much we all suck cause we can't even analyze or copy those works. those guys are so much above =)
i'm waiting for fulldetailed 1600*1200 sized works for future, not any stupid one character comix
sketch and stuff like that. nothing wrong with that, BUT when all those "dead weights" are coming
to talk what they don't know at all, and flaming shit up.. that's bullshit. nothing wrong with ordinary scene art. people will develope with it.
but we're very far away what we can be. if we even want to something else that just needs a lot of hard work.

then what is art imo? it's someone's journey into microcosmos. we are like innerspace astronaults that
are receiving unknown data/information from somewhere that there's no time or place cause
everythings SAME. channeling? =) what is artists high? it's a situation when you do your
stuff and the rest of the world could just blow out because you don't have time or place when
you're working deep. art is searching and founding. some are so deep with it that if they fail they make a suicide or go insane.

books about "ansi comix rips are pure art" or some ansifools keeping their ego high just gets myself laughing because those guys
mostly don't know about making art. it's in the head, not in functionkeys or buttons. ofcourse i might know less than those, i dont deny.. but i know most of them
are talking about technix, nothing else. thus i don't keep MOST of 3d as art too. it's mathematics for me, boys, no emotion or such.
especially all those raytraced computers, cars and such. but i love Mantis's stuffs =)
imo photomanips are 90% design that i've seen on scene.. to be succeed on it you have to find new ways of doing it.
look at yahoo and find all those thousands of designers doing the same things. how they are
going to be different?..

about art, some scene people are dumb. they support their friends or views so Strongly that they doesnt
care about what's going on, or they doesnt even want to search the truth on some cases..
i KNOW that, that's "dead weight". and that's proven. they only give you S-T-r-e-s-s.

tabaqui:
>Of COURSE you do it because you like it - art is >one of the FEW things people actually
>do for love and enjoyment, instead of profit.

this is true. but not always for some people. art can be a hell that some1 have to carry with him.
it depends on the atmosphere a lot, too. true art can't be done with lots of $.
; when you start getting $ you're going to sold out (with some exceptions). for numerous artists the number
of prints of lithograps are going to increase with a big number and the works are going more
plain. people are also starting to use you,
and you definetely STOP developing. because you'll do just that what pays the big $$$.
that's how people work.

darkmage:
>I've also noticed the trend where any revolutionary person or idea doesn't receive
>its full attention or respect until long after the originator is dead and buried.

in some cases yeah, but for many it have been happened when they have been very old.
like for most impressionist, some cubists, surrealists and abstractexpressionists.
some say artists are looneys, they are before their (public's) times.. and the edge of a genious and a artist can be very little.

depends a lot of relationships too. with great relationships with biggun critics you can be a
big selling guy with any skills.

massd:
>Would anyone in ACID skip a day at work or forego a paycheck so they could stay
>home and finish a piece for the next acquisition? I sincerely doubt it.

yes bud, you know how i used to do? but what is insane camurshol advertisements?=).
doing commercial 3d and releasing it on pack for skene =)?

when someone want's fame on ART he should know that it cames after he have dropped the egoism on itself.
he should forget who he is, and become humble. then he becomes real. i'd suggest some books from Castaneda and such.
why we have to live in so much hate every day?
oh yeah.
:)


By Incognit0 on Thursday, January 7, 1999 - 07:16 am:

Tom1
>>for the elite of fine-art scene it rests and >>always will. computer arts are contempory
>>art like video art, or net-art, not fine-art.. >>am i right or does it belong to fine-art?

I don't believe it all goes into fine art... comic book characters and basic designing isn't classified as a Fine Art. Yet, there is work that exist that can be considered Fine Art. As we know , and as it's been stated; you can't just sit down and create a piece of Fine Art. IT's a learning experience that begins before you ever pick up the brush or in my case the stylus. I've spent years wondering around the "Real Art Scene" going to gallery showings, having my own, helping real world artist as well as following a Commercial art field so I can pay the bills. The part that has the most influence me on my personal work is the studing of the Masters that began the styles I most likely want to follow. People like Hans Hofmann, J. Deibenkorn, Auerbach, and others. I firmly believe you can create Fine Art on a computer. You just have to take the same procedures that you would on a real world canvas and apply it to your digital canvas. All the art I do that is personal to myself is done in this fashion.

>>i don't believe computer art will ever be >>nothing but a fashion that will be underground.
>>why?
>>cause it sucks among the leading forces of >>critics.

Once again your right... Critics hate computer created art no matter how much it simulates real world mediums. But you have to have an open mind or CG Fine Art will always be classified with the "net-art, and video art." I've had art professors tell me my ideals of computer and my art itself was something that needs to confront the modern commerial fields. And I've had professors (Painting) tell me I was cheating becuase although I can paint a piece of art that rivals their own in both emotion, texture, brush work, look, feel, and color; I'm still not doing it in the correct form. I print all my work out large format, And I use these on what seems like a monthly basis now to prove that computer created art is much more then the common Graphic Design work we see all around us. Call me an optamisitc person when it comes to this area of art. But A true computer created Fine Art movement is going to happen. People are out there creating it on a daily basis but as we have realized here it's impossible for them to get recognized becuase of crtics and a lack of backing from the graphics field. But I feel a movment will take place... and if we don't do something about it, someone else will.

>>when someone want's fame on ART he should know >>that it cames after he have dropped the egoism >>on itself.
>>he should forget who he is, and become humble. >>then he becomes real.

Very well put...

-incognit0


By God among Lice on Friday, January 8, 1999 - 08:18 pm:

root88: I've thought for a long time that if I ever had the luxury of having a personal show in a gallery, I'd want to do just what that guy did.. display my works on monitors mounted in walls. I always thought it was really strange that so many people are creating artwork using the computer, with pixels of light as the essential medium, and then going and printing that same art.

I suppose the main reason is because people like to have some kind of permanent, singular proof of a work of art.. something they can touch and be able to say it really exists. It's easier to sell something like that too. What I like about the scene and where I think it's already ahead of the curve compared to most forms of "fine art", is the total acceptance of artwork that's in its native digital state. We're releasing image files - data - and viewing them with monitors, like they were originally created upon.

And as tomppa1 was talking about, when people are selling art, they may start to change what they are creating in order to make more money. The art that people make in the scene can't be sold, typically, at least not as a true digital image (unless you're doing web design or something, but that's not the kind of art we're talking about). So I think that's another strong thing that we have going for us.. this forum allows us to concentrate solely on the art we're creating, and not on maximizing our art so that it will make the most money. Maybe some of us might eventually sell a print or something.. who knows.. but the key is that our audience consists mainly of our peers in the scene, and I think that helps to keep our artwork honest.

But on the other side of this coin.. it probably isn't a positive thing that we are focused only on our own scene. People still need to be aware of the current and past trends in art that have occurred outside of our scene in the "real world". I think that's quite obvious when you look at all the artwork in the scene, and see the uninspired creations that people regularly release. It helps to have a broader view of things, and find more to be inspired by than the artwork scenesters are displaying.


By God among Lice on Friday, January 8, 1999 - 08:34 pm:

Oh, and one more thing about prints vs digital files I forgot to mention... Most printing techniques aren't even permanent, and will fade eventually. I'm not sure of the exact longevity specs for modern dyes, but it certainly isn't the same as a proper oil painting. When you think about it, it's the digital image that is the most permanent of the many different media, since it consists only of data. It is the idea, the information contained within the image, that is the lasting artwork. This data can be represented however you want to, so long as it still completely and accurately represents the artist's original creation.

I've been wondering lately if the classic idea of ownership becomes inadequate for digital images. Maybe the more proper model would be licensing agreements? "Pay me so many dollars and I'll give you the right to have my image printed or electronically reproduced" or something like that. :)

whaddya think?


By Xten on Sunday, January 10, 1999 - 03:22 am:

I'm glad i found this discussion...

I've read some valid points, and some not so valid ones. But these are opinions, right? Everyone is entitled to their own.

As far as commercial art goes. Who says people can't put passion into it? Sure, you really have to make a name for yourself and have to put some serious time into it--but I'm certain it is possible.

Consider this example: An architect is commissioned to design some structure.
This person is given FULL freedom. The architect has many things to take into account, but the form of the structure is entirely up to him/her. This architect was picked purely on his style and credentials. The comissioning company is putting full trust on this person--letting the architect's own talent/knowledge manifest itself in the finished work. Those who have that luxury--earning such respect that they are given that much freedom are producing art, aren't they? If not, why not? I don't understand. They aren't taking directions--they are creating--drawing from that innate skill that has made them earn that respect. Yes, that something that comes from within that makes you an artist. NOT any training you might have gone through--that's secondary. People think they can learn the right tools (photo-chop, 3Dpimp, and whatever else) and then make superior work. Anyone reading this should know it isn't so--superior work comes from superior people.

Those that succeed and achieve that status can produce art (even extremely revolutionary which can mark the beginning of a style or movement, and thus secure a mark in that trade history book) while getting generously rewarded.

Maybe you discard architecture as a form of artistic expression (in which case, you should go back to watching TV instead of reading this).
Many of the renaissance artists we regard as some of the greatest painters/scupltors in history did the same--works for wealthy families, or wealthy institutions (err, the catholic church for one). Now tell me, please, if this isn't the same?

The same goes for typographers, graphic designers, filmmakers, musicians. Weed out the crap, and you're left with a few very talented artists. Some get paid, and more, some never had training in their areas of expertise, and guess what? Some started doing what they do as a hobby.

You and I know--if you're not in this b/c you really feel what you do, b/c you have a need to express yourself, and b/c you HAVE to, you're in it for the wrong reasons. If you have the talent, there is the potential to succeed. And if there is enough motivation, there is the potential to get recognition for the scene. But there are so many people in the "scene" with so many different specialties, that it is going to be tough. Whats so special about what we do collectively, that other people (who are not in the scene) are doing?
NOTHING. We're using digital means to create our work and to comminicate (or "socialize" [please] as some have noted). SO WHAT? Who cares. Whats special about we do? It all began with ANSI, maybe that's what's unique--but most ANSI works (correct me if I'm wrong) are reproductions of comic book characters or other *borrowed* material put into a very small resolution with a difficult aspect ratio and a limited set of predefined "brush shapes" (F#). It takes skill, but (no offense to the ansi guys) if you spend enough time doing it, where is the challenge? More importantly, other that coming up with a unique shading style and color preferences, how do you distinguish yourself from others when you're copying characters from a book? This is a generalisation, since I know there is original ANSI out there. ANSI isn't practical--so using this as our defining virtue in attempts to get attention won't work.

So enough with the attacks--let the scene evolve.
And if people really want to get recognition from the real art world (at scene-wide level) tighten QC, and limit production to a specific type of work or theme. Needless to say, I don't think this is going to happen. So what's the solution?


rob


By Dangermouse on Sunday, January 10, 1999 - 10:34 pm:

Here here..


By Dieznyik on Monday, January 11, 1999 - 08:46 pm:

This seems to be more focused on hi-rez art... something that has always seemed more publically justifiable than Ansi... but being primarily an Ansi artist, I have ten times the complaints some of you have. Many Ansi 'artists' are ashamed of their works, and dont ever feel they have the capability to produce worthy art... they merely have the skill to copy other people.. erm, man im ticked off.

Notice how itz mostly hi-rez people talking about this subject? Ansi as real art is scoffed at. People say I smoke way too much crack for thinking that such a thing is possible... ah sigh.

Amen for Catbones' funboy ting.


By Leonardo.iCE on Monday, January 11, 1999 - 10:38 pm:

I have the upmost respect for ansi art and ansi artists. It aint easy, even copying comic books isn't that easy. I garentee any *talented* ansi artist could draw quality hirez artwork if they just tried.

I do agree with you though, when I used to draw ansi, I tried to show poeple (unaware of the scene) my ansis, and they just didn't get it. You can't really appreciate it unless you've experienced it yourself. Its just the way it is. Hopefully you can get some gratification showing your artwork to people who do appreciate it.

I never felt *ashamed* of my ansi art, I didn't care if only people in the ansi scene liked it. It was good enough for me. If thats the case for some ansi artist then why the hell do they do it?!?! maybe their just not real artists? maybe their just not cut out for the scene? maybe they should just try a little harder.

maybe they should try hirez and see what happens?

anyways... All I'm saying is that no artists should feel ashamed of their artwork no matter what medium they use.

Leo


By Pinguino on Tuesday, January 12, 1999 - 08:45 pm:

I can't believe that I sat here and read all of the messages in this subject field, but seeing the varience of ideas totally captivated me.

This world that we have created HAS a place in history. It's up to US to put it there. Nobody knows our story better. Ideally, people will write about the ANSI scene when we're long gone. Some will remark upon the talent, some on dedication and evolution. However, the art scene to me has always carried a unity that rivals all other "collectives." It is that unity that I hope will be remembered. Back when I was writing for various emags, the recurring theme was that the scene was dying, and a few years later, rumors whispered that the ansi scene was a total joke. I'm really happy that there are still people who believe in the scene, and taking it beyond the levels where it currently stands, either through galleries or infecting the professional world. I'd love to help bring attention to the scene, this time with more confidence and professionalism than at ComiCon 1996 (anyone remember that?).. I remember a similar discussion somewhere, where I suggested setting a scene gallery up at a rave, and someone flipped out about how they didn't want their art to be associated with druggies or something. I still firmly believe that much can be done when taking the underground route, of bringing together various sects of the art and music scenes. Currently, I'm promoting my digital comic book CD in that fashion, putting art on display at a portable booth and hitting up crowds of people who have no idea what a digital comic book is, much less who I or my company are. The feedback has been positive, and I would highly recommend a similar setup for art groups. Unfortunately, such activities take from the event for the exhibitors, and take precious free time which could be devoted to creating more artwork.

An observation:
A commercial artist seems to have to be on the verge of change, finding new opportunities and constantly pimping his services out. A true artist seems to draw what comes to mind, and quietly releases the art to a smaller circle of friends.
Is there a balance, and how would that be described?

Anyways. I have the flu and I'm rambling, so, sorry if this post is completely incoherant and duplicates what has been said.


By Darkmage on Tuesday, January 12, 1999 - 11:15 pm:

>A commercial artist seems to have to be on the verge of change, finding new opportunities and constantly pimping his services >out. A true artist seems to draw what comes to mind, and quietly releases the art to a smaller circle of friends.
>Is there a balance, and how would that be described?

There is no difference. You are either an artist or you aren't. Is a musician less of a musician because they sell their music? Is a writer less talented because they write something for someone else's vision? No, of course not. It's no different with visual arts. Maybe some of you are masochists and enjoy being a stereotypical starving artist, but I for one like to have some fucking steaks in the freezer. I'd rather do that by selling some art than doing some menial job, just for the sake of keeping my art 'true' as you people keep calling it.

This whole concept of a person either having to be a commercial artist or a 'true' artist is ridiculous. Just because an artist sells some work doesn't mean all of his/her art is done for money. Why shouldn't I do commercial artwork? I sit at home all day and doodle on my puter and I'm fuckin gettin paid for it.

Those of you that take your art seriously and are not paying bills off an artistic career are missing out. Unless you are either still living with mom and dad or you are a snobby rich kid, you are going to have to whore yourself to the almighty dollar at some point, or you are going to die cold, hungry, and very soon. It may as well be in a field that coincides somewhat with your chosen goals in life (ie: art, since that's what we're talking about.)

To agree in part though, artwork done for yourself is more enjoyable and usually looks better, because it will be 100% you, as opposed to being limited by the demands of a client.

-darkmage [iCE]


By Root88 on Wednesday, January 13, 1999 - 08:12 am:

I also get paid for creating art. Granted, my job is normally to transform someone else's idea into some visual medium. Does that mean it's not my art? Sometimes I feel that way, sometimes I don't. Most times, I add my own ideas to a piece. Also, anyone else that tried to produce the work I have created would have had it turn out a different way. It is my artwork. At the very least, it's the same thing as doing a joint with another artist.

It's hard to be a prophet and make a profit.
Improbable, not impossible.


By God among Lice on Wednesday, January 13, 1999 - 07:58 pm:

Xten has made some great points, and I think he's finally gotten to the heart of what I'm now seeing as the central issue behind what's being debated.

<< Those that succeed and achieve that status can produce art (even extremely revolutionary which can mark the beginning of a style or movement, and thus secure a mark in that trade history book) while getting generously rewarded. >>

There's this distinction here of a *trade* history. There indeed are different forms of art, with different histories to them. I think often times the best artists or art movements can be measured by their effect upon these other forms of art. Literature influences music, music influences fine art, influences design, influences illustration... or any combination thereof. These instances of great influence aside, I think each artform still largely carries its own history.

Let me try to clear up my own position on some things... Ideally, I'd like to concentrate my current energies on what I'd like to call fine art, that is art who's history has traditionally been told in big Art History textbooks and taught in Art History classes (that's my quick, easy, messy definition). One thing I find appealing is the very rich history involved. Another is the emphasis on art simply as art, as something entirely removed from all other possible uses, the idea that it must stand alone and could not be used for some other purpose. But most of all, I find myself gravitated to this history, this field of art, because of the great emphasis given to exploring the fundamental issues in art. I want to be aligned with people who give thought to the gravity of what they are doing, people who constantly question beliefs and forge new ones.

There are family physicians, there are podiatrists, there are plastic surgeons, and there are medical researchers. A doctor in any one of these fields is not necessarily more talented or more of a "true" doctor than the next. They are all important and necessary fields, as well. However, I would see a medical researcher as being a more fundamental job. A surgeon may save more lives, but the researcher is laying the groundwork for future medical knowledge. It's more about ideas, questions raised and answered, and less about skill.

Also, let us please lay to rest the issue of being paid for art. Obviously, people who make any form of art their occupation are most likely going to want to be paid in some form or another. People regularly sell their artwork, whether it's for a museum or a web page. I don't think Van Gogh ever sold a painting, but was supported with help from an admiring brother, and at the very least was paid respect by his peers. The fact that he didn't sell anything has little to do with current admiration for him. And it'd be equally wrong to say that he should have instead pursued a graphic art that would have paid him some money, wouldn't it? :)

As I've said before, I don't think Cat has the best idea when it comes to "getting rid of the deadweight". I don't want to prevent people from creating art for whatever reasons they want. I just wish there were more people around creating art for the same reasons I do. Consider this an open invitation to join me.


By Tmi on Thursday, January 14, 1999 - 12:38 am:

no point to discuss because people are so different and that's the way it should be.
concentrating to different things that are right for them.
i know here's noone who understands me so i'm out rather than making it a problem to myself =)
have a nice day :)
.
o
/|\
/\
==================


By Pariah on Wednesday, January 20, 1999 - 06:43 pm:

The problem with this whole discussion is that the majority of the scene is composed of lo-res (ansi and ascii) artists, who have no reason to even think that the time they spend drawing could actually amount to something outside of the small community that is the computer art scene. For those people (myself included) the scene in itself is too abstract; it exists only with the turning off and on of a computer.

I imagine that from a hi-res artists' point of view the scene can actually offer something (in terms of appreciation and revenue) that extends past communicating over irc or through email, simply because the age that we live in has a large demand for hi-res art and graphics. Unfortunately, that demand does not exist between the real world and lo-res artists. If, as it already has in the hi-res scene, the possibility of receiving money (sufficient to support oneself with) or recognition (from the mainstream art community) arose, I'm sure that a heightened level of professionalism would emerge among lo-res artists. The reality of the matter; however, is that such a situation has yet to present itself, and unless someone takes the first step, probably never will.

As long as that's the case I think that it's a bit absurd to expect even a modicum of seriousness from the primarily lo-resolution based computer art scene.


By Cthulu of Mistigris on Wednesday, January 20, 1999 - 11:27 pm:

I know that money has exchanged hands where large ansis are concerned, sometimes great sums of it.
However, how do you account for the seriousness with which writers approach their work, given that most writers never get published and few of those who do recieve monetary compensation for it?


By Pariah on Thursday, January 21, 1999 - 06:53 am:

I'm aware of certain ansi artists charging for their art, but I seriously doubt that any wealth accumulated in doing so has ever amounted to even the slightest resemblance of a modest income.

As to your second point, I don't quite understand what you're trying to say. Are you referring to computer art scene based writers? I consider myself to be a professional writer, and in the short time that I have dwindled in the fields of creative writing and journalism I have yet to encounter the difficulties that you have described. For me, writing is probably going to account for my success (or lack thereof) in life, so naturally I take it much more seriously than I do the scene.


By Dangermouse on Thursday, January 21, 1999 - 01:35 pm:

Stranger on the street:
"What do you do for a living?"

Doodleboy:
"I'm a professional ANSI/ASCII artist"

Heh.. Sure this will never happen, but christ it'd be funny if I overheard it..


By Filth on Thursday, January 21, 1999 - 01:40 pm:

i think that some ansi artists surpassed some employment rates. such as babysitters :)


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