Basic training

acheron.org discussion board: Techniques, Learn-to-draw: Basic training
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By Argon on Thursday, January 28, 1999 - 12:00 am:

Well what does everyone think about Basic Training, found in Gutter #8? I think its an excellent idea, and I hope more artists jump onto this bandwagon and offer their work-in-progress saves. I also think its interesting to check out how other artists draw their ansis.

Argon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By crayONOFF on Thursday, January 28, 1999 - 07:56 am:

I really don't see how saving steps is going to help newbies.. If i watch someone cooking a kickass dinner on TV, it doesn't make me a better chef (i'm a bad cook, alright?) .. so seeing someone's steps won't really help worth shit.. I can't see myself being helped at least.. well, when it's like toongoon made it (steps, with instructions and descriptions below) might work.. but i don't think just different pieces of ANSI is going to help anyone.. PRST's will work too, cause it's a standard tutorial...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By Leonardo.iCE on Thursday, January 28, 1999 - 10:32 am:

"I really don't see how saving steps is going to help newbies.. If i watch someone cooking a
kickass dinner on TV, it doesn't make me a better chef (i'm a bad cook, alright?)"

have you ever even tryed following along with the chef on TV, and actually try to cook what he's making?

if ansi artists TRY to learn from it, they will.

Leo


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By RaD Man on Thursday, January 28, 1999 - 10:35 am:

I've learned alot about cooking from Martin Yan. Everyone learns things differently, some learn visually and by example. I think this "Basic Training" is a great idea. Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it won't for someone else. Keep an open mind...

-r


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By filth on Thursday, January 28, 1999 - 12:40 pm:

i'm not a believer in tutorials. and i think that 90% of them are "how to draw just like me" lessions. but i think basic traning is a bit different.

i agreed to put it in gutter becuase if you take a bunch of different artists, and have them show you step by step instructions on how they draw, it's better than just one tutorial. if you are a newbie, and you never really drew a big pic before, i think basic training is a good thing.

and that tv dinner thing is a really lame comparison. what about that bob ross guy? he was this painter that'd do a whole painting from start to finish. if i were an aspiring painter, i could learn a lot from him.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By Leonardo.iCE on Thursday, January 28, 1999 - 12:44 pm:

bob ross was da shit! does PBS still air his show?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By Funbaby on Thursday, January 28, 1999 - 02:43 pm:

I have a book called "How to Paint Like the Old Masters" or something similar. It's an artist recreating how he thinks Rembrandt and Titian and Vermeer and those guys painted.

It describes it all in depth, but I learned the most just by looking at the step-by-step pictures.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By crayONOFF on Thursday, January 28, 1999 - 02:46 pm:

hmm, guess i proved myself pretty stupid with my sleepless ramblings ... and i guess that chef comparison was pretty lame, but you all see my point.. you people still haven't convinced me how it helps anyone... i dunno, i guess it's just me.. but i think it's the biggest waste of time and space...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By dangermouse on Thursday, January 28, 1999 - 03:48 pm:

I think Rad Man raised the most important point here: People learn in many different ways, whether it be by visual stimuli, aural stimuli or a combination of both (and I am sure there are others).

Some people learn by seeing examples, others by hearing someone explain it, and others by reading textual info..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By God among Lice on Thursday, January 28, 1999 - 09:28 pm:

I think crayon would say that the best way of learning is just doing, not having someone else tell you how. No one ever told me "this is how you draw a hand"... I just looked at my hand and tried to draw it. I would agree that a lot of the time the closest you can get to learning, or being taught, is to simply have feedback from others on what you've already done yourself. Judging from his own art, I'd also guess that crayon would think that doing stuff on your own would promote more originality of styles and modes than the typical comic rip styles, for example.

But yea, different people want to learn in different ways. I guess for some people the better term would be "discovering", if they want to go it alone.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By crayONOFF on Friday, January 29, 1999 - 06:18 am:

ahh, there's the ticket Licey... I agree to the fullest.. looking at how someone else does it just makes you do it the same way i'd think, and then it'd take a while before you're original.. and if you're just going to be a clone of someone else you can just go hide somewhere and don't take up space in group packs :) and like toongoon said that symetric F5-F6 shading a straight line (wakko's chin) looks the best.. i think that kind of shading looks horrible.. symmetric shading is for symmetric things, wakko's head isn't one of those :)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By RaD Man on Friday, January 29, 1999 - 09:29 am:

One of the best tutorials I ever read was by Somms, an ACiD artist from the past. He explained how to draw curves in ANSI and visually showed the difference using the odd or even half blocks, because one block was a row of pixels shorter than the other one was.

This wasn't a "How to be like Somms" tutorial, it was a tutorial of how to shade better and draw better shapes tutorial.

The point? This was best conveyed VISUALLY. Until then I hadn't even noticed it.

-R
(Author of the "lame" cooking analogy)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By crayOFF on Friday, January 29, 1999 - 09:54 am:

somms made a tutorial? I missed that, where can i get it raddyman? somms was great... for a comic ripper :P


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By Funbaby on Friday, January 29, 1999 - 10:24 am:

Isaac Newton said:

"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants."

I think it applies.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By Leonardo.iCE on Friday, January 29, 1999 - 11:33 am:

"somms made a tutorial? I missed that, where can i get it raddyman? somms was great... for a
comic ripper :P "

Dude, somms was one of my BIGGEST idles of ALL time!!! yeah, I remember seeing that tutorial, it was in a mag, in late 1994 I think. I have no idea which one. it might have been undergrown?? I dunno..

Leo


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By Argon on Friday, January 29, 1999 - 03:58 pm:

Maybe Somms's magazine, Continuum.. ?

Anyhow, Somms was definitely my idol as well.. .And some of his stuff was better and more detailed than the comics themselves.. :)

Argon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By filth on Friday, January 29, 1999 - 10:46 pm:

in a sense i agree with crayon about how people shouldn't really try to learn by tutorials. but basic training really isn't a tutorial. i even wrote a little something in gutter about how i think most tutorials are "how to be like me". people like somms, halasaster, and slothy all have so so tutorials. they don't just outline a font or a pic then shade it. they go through lightsource techniques, proportionings and things like. they show you the basics of how it's done.

in gutter, i intended basic training not to be so much a tutorial, but an insight of how people draw. and not all artists are very artisticly inclined. i've been asked many times by people for stuff i had in the works. and i'm sure i'm not the only one. i guess you could say i decided to put basic training in my mag for a sense of entertainment. for people to go "oh, so that's how he did it." i don't expect people to go out and start tying to draw like toongoon, or myself.

as for that somms tutorial, i believe it was in either teribum, or continnuim. :)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By root88 on Monday, February 1, 1999 - 10:59 am:

No one ever told me "this is how you draw a hand"... I just looked at my hand and tried to draw it.
- Lice

Yes, but someone could say, "When you draw a hand, don't forget these tendons, or the half moons on the the fingernails, or the ridges on nails that have not been filed, etc. etc. It can be helpful. Two artists might reach the same results, but by different means. By combining their knowledge, they could find the quickest or easiest way of gonig about it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By filth on Monday, February 1, 1999 - 01:01 pm:

root's post reminds me of something i forgot to talk about. crayon, from what i gathered from your post, you're saying that it's pretty pointless to have basictraining in my mag. but i mean, i think of my self as a pretty well defined ansi artist. i've been doing it long enough to know what works and what doesn't. but i'm still constantly picking things up. i learn new things all the time from ansi artists, just by lookin at their art. and you honestly can't tell me that 100% of what you create hasn't been influenced at all from something else. there's nothing wrong from learning from other people.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By crayONOFF on Monday, February 1, 1999 - 02:42 pm:

filth, of course you're right.. but you still learn from people? i thought a guy like you was like, at his peak... (well, of course the peak is original pics *pun*poke* :) i don't think I learn anything from people anymore, well ... dieznyik always inspires me, he always have... but i wouldn't really call it learning, cause nowadays i'm the one doing the experimentation.. and yes my stuff was inspired by something someone, a few of the ansis in jaded were ansi versions of designs of webpages/flyers/magazines i did in school. so there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By filth on Tuesday, February 2, 1999 - 12:41 pm:

yeah man, i'm always picking techniques up. i mean from legion01 to the latest cia pack i feel i've learned a lot. i think i'm pretty much in my style niche, but people like fever, toon goon, and trip are still making me open up aciddraw want to go draw. maybe you could say i'm either learning something, or just plain getting inspired.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By God among Lice on Wednesday, February 3, 1999 - 01:25 pm:

root88: I don't think you read the sentence immediately following the one you quoted. :)

>> I would agree that a lot of the time the closest you can get to learning, or being taught, is to simply have feedback from others on what you've already done yourself.

so yea, I agree.. it's nice to have a 2nd opinion of things. But I just think a lot of the time it's most productive to have input after you've already tried something.. By receiving instruction beforehand, you lose some originality you might have had had you done it on your own. Your own way might have been quite unorthodox and possibly just as striking for its inexactness or personal emotion, or whatever.

Drawing a hand is a bad example because drawing from life implies that there's one ideal being worked towards.

Anyway.. geez I spend too much time posting on this stupid board.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By Cthulu on Wednesday, February 3, 1999 - 02:49 pm:

Until you start posting as much as me, you've got no problem 8)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By warpus (gateway-g1.londonlife.com - 204.101.39.130) on Wednesday, February 10, 1999 - 12:28 pm:

while i believe that the only way to get good at something is to practice, taking a look at how other people do it will help even more. what i'm trying to say is - you can't learn how to draw by looking at tutorials, and memorizing the "rules". instead, you should practice a lot on your own, and look at tutorials and other ansis to inspire you further. so yes, i think that basic training is a great idea, as long as a variety of artists participate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By nightstalker (riogrande.tvd.be - 195.162.196.9) on Wednesday, February 10, 1999 - 05:34 pm:

I'll tell you guys how i learned how to draw .rip.
basically i just looked at other people's rips at a slower speed (so you can see what they did). So it would be crazy for me to say basic training is something useless :)
But as warpus said: practicing is more important than looking.
Anyway, this basic training is a good idea.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By skaboy (sys23.hou.wt.net - 205.230.159.23) on Sunday, February 14, 1999 - 11:21 pm:

wow well all i've gotto say is that im glad basic training stirred up this much discussion :) it was a big project to put together (especially with what, 6 hours notice :) heh, but what a rad thing it is - and i look forward to producing future issues with the scenes support :)
welp, take it easy

skaboy (avenge!99)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By filth (svcr-94ppp74.epix.net - 199.224.94.74) on Monday, February 15, 1999 - 01:08 pm:

what??? you were given a 6 hour notice?? what kinda nazi runs that mag???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By Argon (wlv-a4-d0024.ftel.net - 205.138.219.56) on Monday, February 15, 1999 - 04:10 pm:

Who says Skaboy can't kick ass under a deadline? :)

Argon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By jack phlash ( - 206.23.216.34) on Tuesday, February 16, 1999 - 05:48 am:

haha. word.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By rippa ( - 203.24.205.17) on Friday, February 19, 1999 - 05:08 pm:

most of the ansi tutorials are "how to draw my generic 5line logos in many different colours". basic training isn't, its a way to find out the techniques on how the artists draw their stuff.. if anything, it's damned interesting, radmans right, one man's trash is another man's treasure.. people should realize that if ONE person in the world thinks differently after seeing something of theirs, then their goal is accomplished.. UP with basic training..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By klumzee ( - 198.164.230.183) on Saturday, February 20, 1999 - 08:07 am:

"UP with basic training.. " - Rippa

"haha. word." - jack phlash

:)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By tee_are ( - 205.217.24.116) on Wednesday, February 24, 1999 - 12:15 pm:

"UP with basic training.. " - Rippa

"haha. word." - jack phlash

I second that motion =) Did anyone READ my portion of basic training? I believe that was probably my best ascii ever!@ I also believe that was when i reached the stage of boredom with the ascii medium and when I moved on to the ansi medium.. I'm like WAY behind most of you, but give me time and i'll catch up. anyways, this didn't have much to do with the topic but owell...

tee_are
purg productions


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By klumzee ( - 198.164.230.191) on Tuesday, March 2, 1999 - 08:58 am:

Klumzee here, just to let you know, I have room for plenty more basic training articles/tutorials (whatever you want to call them.) and I'd like to thank Argon for submitting our first literature tutorial for all you aspiring writers out there :) If you have an article just send it to me at klumzee@mailcity.com... please get them in ASAP because I have a feeling filth is just ITCHING to get gutter #10 out and catch up to that whole ... month/issue deal. (He's supposedly a month late :) ...

P.S. I probably shouldn't post this here, but rather than put it in the news where people are likely to look at it and forget about it, why not put it in the discussion forum where I know people will see it and read it.. over.. and over.. and over again. :)

P.P.S I was just re-reading some of the comments you guys have on Basic Training and I'm glad that for the most part they're positive, and a lot of you seem to be catching on to the sort of 'vision' I had for it... not being a 'how to draw like me' tutorial, and more of a 'here's how I do this' type of deal. Thanks for your support.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By Mass Delusion (sji-ca1-77.ix.netcom.com - 209.109.232.77) on Sunday, March 7, 1999 - 01:53 pm:

Just wanted to throw a link in here, to something that might a relevant 'resource' to note in gutter.

http://learn.ice.org

that's my site i've had up since 1996, with bunches of stuff from different people. Some of it more useful than others, but I think all of it will help someone to pick up a technique or two, especially from magneticm since he has such a different style. check it out, it's not that bad. :)

-Mass Delusion


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By tee_are ( - 205.217.24.121) on Wednesday, March 10, 1999 - 02:54 pm:

Good call MassD. That page has helped me tremendously, if not in technique, in motivation and inspiration. The real inspiration for me to start drawing ansi was by looking back on the ansi scene. My favorites are old Integrity, ACiD, iCE, CiA, GoTHiC, etc... The old GREATS! (Note: I did not say masters.) Look at the detail in these pics. Look at the amount of pics and the quality of them.

tee_are
purg productions
tr@purg.com


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By Halaster (crispix.cyert.andrew.cmu.edu - 128.2.111.76) on Thursday, March 18, 1999 - 09:06 am:

Somebody mentioned "rules" above -

I actually found it very useful to have concrete rules when I began drawing.. for example, I never ever placed f2's next to f4's or spaces without having an f3 or f1 between them. I also had rules about spacing to get depth and stuff like that.

Rules made me very meticulous, which can be good if you're going for a constructed sort of style. Of course, the real trick is learning when to break your own rules for emphasis.

Most disciplines have certain "do nots" .. and I think they're well-founded, so long as they're seen as legitimate rules of thumb as opposed to dogma.

Another ansi "do not" that helped me: never place solid color changes next to each other without blackspace. Of course, violating this rule was one of the best things I ever did, but I violated it in an atypical way for specific purposes. I still think that the no-sudden-color-shift rule is a good rule of thumb. :)

It's also what makes ansis look cartooney.


Halaster


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By c0 (dopey.mathsoc.uwaterloo.ca - 129.97.134.21) on Friday, April 2, 1999 - 09:42 am:

I think basic training is a good idea. However, I think it's FAR from being an original one, and it's also an idea that Filth used to diss diss diss all the time. "Ansi tutes are useless", he would say. And now he's got 'em in his OWN e-mag. So either he's running outta material, and wants some filler, or he's compromising the integrity of his e-mag to do what's popular.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By Funbaby (ip188.pom.primenet.com - 204.212.52.188) on Friday, April 2, 1999 - 12:13 pm:

Or he changed his mind.

People do that now and then.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By maestro (abitw.javanet.com - 209.94.128.4) on Monday, April 5, 1999 - 06:11 am:

Yeah, give him a break.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By maestro (abitw.javanet.com - 209.94.128.4) on Monday, April 5, 1999 - 06:12 am:

One more thing.. Filth is the shit and un-dissable which means you can't dis him because I said so.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By klumzee ( - 198.164.230.132) on Monday, April 5, 1999 - 02:48 pm:

Count Zero; Filth obviously doesn't think THIS type of Ansi tutorial is useless, I like to think that Basic Training is different than a lot of those other tutorials out there, but maybe it's not. Even still, if one of those tutorials can help even one ansi artist to improve, I think Basic Training has done what I wanted it to do.

As for being an original idea, what IS original anymore? I mean you can say something is original, but do you have any proof? Humans sub-consciously gather information to come to decisions and ideas all the time, our influences aren't exactly something we have complete control over. So no, chances are something like this has been done, chances are this isn't a 100% original idea... or atleast certain elements of Basic Training were already covered in the past.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By warpus (gateway-g1.londonlife.com - 204.101.39.130) on Tuesday, April 6, 1999 - 08:29 am:

klumzee: that's way too philisophical a definition for "original", i think you should stick to the "accepted" meaning of the term. original - something that hasn't been done before, or something that in a big way differs from what has been done previously.

ok, i'm off topic again.


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